SketchUp 2013 Gripes & Bitchin' ONLY ;)

[Mike Lucey]

@kwistenbiebel said:

Hi Mike Lucey ,

Valid points you bring up....
At the same time I see a culprit in your suggestions.
John Bacus refers to the EW as an 'app store' which to me indicates a Trimble source of income.
Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?
That would make for a shop in a shop, where revenue of shop A goes to x and revenue B goes to y.
Unlikely isn't it as a business model?

It is all in the naming...it is unfortunate.

Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss.

I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way.

Regards,
Kwistenbiebel

Kwist,

Culprits and Victims! Folks can figure that out for themselves.

You could well be right about your suspicions in relation to the 'App Store' being a future source of Trimble income.
I am not privy to their ultimate plans. However, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it more than likely will be a duck!

As regards your question, 'Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?'

SketchUcation has been and will continue to be upfront in advance about any areas we intend to monitize the site. This is self evident from what we have advised and continue to advise in our Premium Membership section and our Shop area. And currently, NO, I don't expect Trimble SketchUp to incorporate SketchUcation's Plugin Shop for various reasons.

As regards, 'Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss'.

'Open Doors' are of not much use if there is no credible reception on the other side of the open door!

As regards, 'I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way'.

SketchUcation has from its inception upheld as its number one priority, the best interests of its membership and will continue to do so. Without its membership SketchUcation would be a much lesser place. The SketchUcation Plugin Shop was mooted two years ago by our Administrator and we have invested considerable time and investment resources to deliver this in conjunction with a number of our plugin developers.

[Box]

It's worth pointing out here that it might be semantics, but here at sketchucation it's called a Plugin Store, not a shop. It is free to access, some things inside might cost money but it isn't a shop it is a place to collect everything together and store it.

[Mike Lucey]

Thanks Box for clarifying that. I mistakingly typed the word 'Shop' instead of 'Store'. Yes, the word 'Shop' would indicate selling. This is not the intention. Should developers wish to sell, that's their prerogative and we will try to facilitate them where we can.

Even in our actual 'Shop' (Books, Models, Textures etc) we maintain a high level of free content for all members and more so for for our valued supporting Premium Members.

[kwistenbiebel]

I understand totally.
The intention Sketchucation has in holding strong a beautiful community has been proven over the past years.
The prove is a lot of members being happy to be here.
A nice balance between a great service provided and some revenue coming from it, great for all of us.
Most of this community is still for free and members have choice to pay for extras if they like.

I wonder if Trimble has the same intention.
From what I read in their announcement(s), their intentions are manifested most in words, less in according action.
Yes, when Trimble tells us that they 'listen to their user base' I would expect to hear what exactly they heard from the user base and how they acted to that specifically.

A year is a short term for software development so we could continue giving the benefit of the doubt and wait longer for substance.... however , haven't we been saying that for years now coming out of the Google era?

[jeff hammond]

@arail1 said:

The ease of modeling in Rhino V5 would be a good example.

especially when considering it probably has 500+ more commands/tools than su.. but for whatever reason, in sketchup land, adding maybe 10 new tools/functions is going to bloat and ruin the app??

aside from that, they're really open to user feedback.. a few snippets between myself and the developers:

@unknownuser said:

**•attached is a .3dm which i'm using during this crash
•steps to reproduce:

We have known about this crash for three months and not been able to duplicate it. Thank you for the file. This will be fixed in the next release

---

Thank you [...] and should appear in SR2.

---

•some of the dialog boxes have the text cut off as it seems there is a character limit. can you adjust it please?

There was an error when calculating the width of wide radio button controls. This will be fixed in the next release.

---

•just an odd behavior i happened across.. not a big deal- just strange is all.[...] it's greyed out / unavailable

This will be fixed in the next release.

---

• _ArrayCrv feels like too many steps [...] can this be changed?

I agree [...]

---

•when zooming using the trackpad (preference set to ("use two fingers to pan and rotate views") .[...] . can you •change the behavior?

(release notes)

•great!
• thank you for implementing this

---

• so yeah, maybe down the line the [...]

Jeff's suggestion is what I think will be the right solution:
This will be implemented in the next release.

---

Thank you for your eloquent and spot-on post. [...] If you don't mind, I'd like to refer to your post in the future when

---

and that's maybe half of it
**

it's just a completely different vibe, you know? .. they want to make something awesome and don't come across as "oh.. you don't know what's best for the user-- only we do" (or whatever)

[it's not so different than the interaction you'll see around here between the & ... and it's good that way (imo)]

[thomthom]

@aerilius said:

And as for my recent experiences, SU8 has less Ruby bugs and the exactly same Ruby API features.

There are new Ruby API bugs in SU2013?

[jolran]

Frederik wrote

@unknownuser said:

I don't understand why new features a lacking (except a few in LayOut) and I certainly don't understand the completely redesigned license program...

I havent had time to follow this thread in depth, so my comment might have been said before.

I don't think it is Trimbles main priority at this stage that the program should have
bells and whistles in it. The board may not even care how the program works.
The dialog could have been like:

-"Ok everyone, there is a free version that the majority uses".
-"What?!"
-"Yes, and most people don't use Layout."
-"My GOD!! What are we gonna do about that?"
-"I know! We must update Layout and enhance it or maybe even cancel the free version!"
-"No,no. We can't take the free version away. It's suicide.."
-"Then, we put in a lot of good stuff in the PRO version!"
-"Yeah, but there are so many plugins that can enhance the free version
and as soon as we introduce a new PRO feature, some JuncleJack coder makes
a plugin that does the same or even better. Waste of time if I may say so."

-"So I take it we should not update the Ruby API?"
"Laughter........."
-"NO."

-"So what do we do?"
-"Well we can't just release a new licensing program, just like that.
People will go beserk, and it may look bad from our perspective"
-"Uhum, yes ?"
-"We release an update with whatever Sketchup team is working on. And at the same time slide in the new license agreements."
-"Hah! Excellent!"
-"Lets call it Sketchup 2013!!"
-"Yeah, that has a nice ring to it. Does that mean we have to update Sketchup every year?"
-"Probably. But that won't be a problem, ey?"
-"Ha, ha. No."
-"I've heard Autodesk has Subscription license as well."
-"Yeah, but we start with this one and see how it goes. Besides, that is meant for updates,
it's hard enough to put out new releases every year."
-"He, he. For sure."
-"OK, all settled then...."

(Disclaimer! This is written in irony fashion. In case you did not get that )

[Mike Lucey]

As regards giving folks (users) what they want and at the same time getting what you want, business wise!

I have learned that there are just a few simple rules to follow!

Firstly, one has to accept that the customer is ALWAYS RIGHT even when he is totally wrong! This DOES make sense if implemented properly. I'll spell it out for anyone that doesn't understand.

Take Apple for example! They take a very strict policy when it comes to giving the customer what he / she wants. In their case they actually give the customer MORE than what he / she wants which is in effect what they (Apple) want, not the customer, get it? The customer is happy as is Apple!

For a company to be 'high handed' enough to only provide what they consider is 'best' for the customer, they MUST over deliver at all times. Its the only way the customer will remain happy.

If a company is not able or prepared to over deliver, they then just deliver what the customer actually wants (and they do not) in the hope that the customer will stick with them and not move to a competitor going the 'extra mile'.

As we all know here, many of the Pro SketchUp user base has long since matured beyond vanilla SketchUp. I really cannot see the SU Dev Team's problem when it comes to having a number of SketchUp flavours! This requirement has been indicated over and over and over and over again with the numerous 'What does your SU Screen look like?' topics we have had on SketchUcation over a number of years since plugins came on stream. How long does it take for the penny to drop?

I honestly believed that the new TSU Dev Team were going down this path after listening to the opening address at 3D Base Camp last October. Maybe I am imagining things but I thought I heard said that we would not see SU 2013 until late 2013 (hinting at around Sept / Oct this year, 3DBC time) and that we could expect to see an Architectural Flavor version! I really must view the video again to see if I am imagining this! However I don't think I am. It was advised.

This obviously has not happened, what a shame a golden opportunity has been missed. One only get a single chance to make a first impression!

What was all the rush? Well, I think I may know what the rush was as do others but as I say, that for another day. I really hope that my suspicions for the rush are not fully founded but I have a funny feeling they may well be, sad, very sad in deed!

Still, there would appear to be hope yet! We (the SketchUp Community) have not totally abandoned and kicked SU to touch in favor of another app. In fact, the dissatisfaction being expressed in many threads here would indicate very high loyalty levels which again, sadly would not seem to be respected as there has been virtually no response from the TSU Team with the exception of a few of the team that are not involved in core development.

I imagine if the TSU Dev Team has done a great job and praise was being loaded out here we would have many dropping in to take bows! The measure of an individual or company is how they take the rough with the smooth!

[JuanV.Soler]

@mike lucey said:

Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/
With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended )
Mike

Thanks for sharing your feelings about it , Mike,
I do now have a better understanding of what is going on .

[Mike Lucey]

@jolran said:

I don't think it is Trimbles main priority at this stage that the program should have bells and whistles in it. The board may not even care how the program works.

The dialog could have been like:

-"Ok everyone,
.......
-"OK, all settled then...."

(Disclaimer! This is written in irony fashion. In case you did not get that )

Quite funny, but in fairness I don't think any such board meeting took place knowing some of the parties involved. They do have integrity from my experience, just sometimes nieve in certain areas of business but again many USA companies feel they know what is best for the World! 'The times, they are a changing' however and we are seeing more and more non USA companies coming to the fore in the tech world.

[Frederik]

I agree with everything you say 110%, Mike...

@mike lucey said:

...sadly would not seem to be respected as there has been virtually no response from the TSU Team with the exception of a few of the team that are not involved in core development...

Perhaps the TSU team are not that happy about the release either...!?

[jolran]

Yeah Mike.

Like I said I havent followed this topic very seriously but people appear upset.

Any part in what I wrote might be totally incorrect. It's just for fun..

[Mike Lucey]

@jolran said:

Yeah Mike.

Like I said I havent followed this topic very seriously but people appear upset.

Any part in what I wrote might be totally incorrect. It's just for fun..

I know that I always try to retain a sense of humor. I did laugh at what you wrote and enjoyed it

[Aerilius]

Maybe it's just the 2013
Everything will get better soon.

[jason_maranto]

As I've said many times, the community makes SketchUp worthwhile... this has been true for as long as I've been using SketchUp, and has only become more true over time.

Due to that fact, it has often puzzled me as to how SketchUp has interfaced with the community... or not, as the case may be.

Part of the reason I have such disdain for "darling" is I have very carefully watched his interactions with the users. What I've seen is a person who is perhaps nice seeming and polite, but rather dismissive of the user base and very superior in his own mind. This is not a positive thing... it could be a positive thing if he were a great visionary, a man gifted with insight that passed the comprehension of the masses. After all, such a gifted person should follow their own judgement... but "darling" is very clearly not such a person.

I do think such a person was instrumental in the creation of SketchUp, but they are long gone -- and the people left behind simply do not have the genius to carry the work forward. The genius types can dazzle with sporadic displays of creative inspiration. We non-genius types must get by on hard-work -- going above and beyond, delivering more than is asked. This is why I use the word "craftsmanship" when describing what I think the SketchUp team should be focusing on delivering.

I'll also be blunt and say that "darling" (or his staff) have never gone out of their way to support this place -- to the contrary they have gone out of their way to make sure they are much better represented elsewhere (whether that be a forum, or the new plugin warehouse). Never-mind the user base has chosen (and continues to choose) this place, that doesn't matter -- what matters is they are not in control and that's simply not acceptable. This is just one example of the dismissive attitude I am talking about with "darling" -- if you watch closely you will see it clearly.

This is at the heart of what I think is fundamentally wrong with the SketchUp development process. There is a need for clear-eyed understanding at the helm, especially in light of the fact that SketchUp has re-entered the world of commercial software after so long under the Google worldview... which hasn't done them any favors in mentally preparing then for re-entering the harsh commercial landscape.

Best,
Jason.

[Frederik]

Jason...
I really encourage you to stop this personal vendetta here at the SCF...
I can't see that you'll get any disciples here...

Why don't you forward a long letter to the Trimble Board...?

@unknownuser said:

Contact the Board

You can contact Trimble Navigation Limited's Board of Directors to provide comments, to report concerns, or to ask a question, at the following address.

Corporate Secretary
Trimble Navigation Limited
935 Stewart Drive
PO Box 3642
Sunnyvale, CA 94085-3642

I'm sure they're not even aware of SCF and the issue you feel "darling" is causing...

[jason_maranto]

I'll relate a story to you -- perhaps this will clarify why I do some of the things I do:

Frank Frazetta was a great fantasy artist, but because he was so successful and because things came to him fairly easily, he was not the most motivated artist. Once he had achieved a certain level of success he would "coast" for long periods of time... the only thing that would shake him out of these creative stupors were the critics.

What I mean is, as long as people remembered how great the work he put out was, people would leave him alone and he could be comfortably "lazy". But after a while people would start saying things like "He's lost it" or "He's not that good, it was only a fluke"... etc.

Invariably, this would inflame his sense of pride and he would then produce a series of masterpieces just to vindicate himself (in his own eyes, as well as publicly).

After he had successfully re-established his dominance he would begin to coast again and the cycle would repeat.

I heard this from Frank Frazetta's own lips when I met him in person as a younger man, just as I was starting my own artistic career -- this encounter made a great impression on me. What I took from that is: even the best of us need to be pushed if we want to achieve our true potential.

I push hard -- even relentlessly. Myself, as well as those around me... it often makes me a difficult person to deal with, but I see it as vitally necessary.

Best,
Jason.

[Frederik]

I fully understand where you stand, Jason...
I just don't get why you continue this personal vendetta against "darling" here at the SCF...
What for...?
To get "believers"/followers...?

Do you believe that just by shouting louder, people will tune in and become disciples of your vendetta...?

A lot of your points are very valid - IMO - however, voicing all the negativity toward one single individual just won't break the ice, hence I can only encourage you to voice your concern directly to the Trimble Board of Directors...

If "darling" is the kind of person you claim, then I'm sure he will be made redundant, if you manage to get the Board of Director's attention and make them focused about a possible issue they have within a part of their business...

[thomthom]

Thanks to the new nick "darling" I have now associated John with Captain Kevin Darling from Blackadder... ...and I suspect that image will stick forever in my brain.

[jason_maranto]

I guess you don't really understand -- I'm trying to wake him from his stupor.

By calling him out as thoroughly as possible I am putting the onus on him to prove me wrong... if he has any personal pride in his work he will respond. If not, then he will shortly be removed and I will not have to do anything about it anyway.

I'd prefer that he step up his game -- Layout was enough to convince me he has it in him, but he needs to prove it again and again to show it wasn't a fluke.

Best,
Jason.