What will SketchUp Free and Pro look like in 2013?
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Good morning to all
@dave r said:
So Simon, I wonder if you would be willing to do your job without pay. You ask that of the SketchUp team. You must be willing to do the same.
Dear Dave,
What I mean is that SketchUp software need greatly first to "reduce the wide gap" between itself and the leading business solutions.Somehow it is also true that the SketchUp development process must "regain our faith".
Anyway SketchUp Pro is currently a paid solution and therefore represents already seems to me a source of income that allowed the team to be paid for his work@mike lucey said:
Simon, I understand where you are coming from but the point you raise that the SU Team would use and cash in on others work might happen in 'widening the gap'. I very much doubt this would occur.
John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended.
Dear Mike,
How many essential tools perfectly designed should be implemented in SketchUp, often in replacement of existing tools? 15, .., 25? I can't imagine that Trimble will pay for such a large amount of ultra talented code which is actually "given for nothing", nor they will waste their time to "reinvent" the same tools! ...It is therefore predictable that it is with these free stuff that Trimble will make runing an expensive paid version.
On the other hand, the idea to develop specific paid modules seems however, quite acceptable. And this is something that is already developed nicely by many third parties
@mike lucey said:
Whatever way one cuts it, Sketchup has always appreciated its community of users and has maintained contact and ongoing collaboration. I very much doubt ACad users are on a first name basis with the developers and that the developers enter the 'lion's den' on occasion to be inflicted some bites and bruses
I agree with you on that essential point. The close collaboration between development team and the community of users is a main richness of SketchUp. This is why (imo) it is essential for Trimble to be finely careful to keep this alive.
@gaieus said:
@bob james said:
One mode of advancement would be to do nothing to the free version and put all of the advancements into the pro version with specialty modules (rather than whole versions) that can be purchased separately.
@mike lucey said:
...John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended...
And they did that already for the stl exporter in the latest maintenance release (used ideas from two 3rd party plugins - one was that of Jim actually)
Dear Gaieus,
I like your dispassionate synthesis.
I'm confident that SketchUp team and John Bacus in the first place under the Google coverage before that of Trimble right now has always worked in a good spirit. And they have done and actually do what they can with what they are given.I hope the best for the futur of SketchUp,
I would like to still have my place as a passionate hobbyist in that futur...with my sympathy,
Simon
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@d12dozr said:
...new users may just migrate to other free alternatives (of which there are many!).
because I'm not aware of just one alternative app I'd love to hear all of them? ... Blender, you're kiddin'
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
if recent SU free users are willing to switch to "alternatives" easily, they are obviously not very much worth for Trimble in the sense of developing sales of the pro version... community is not everything, sometimes you need to pay for the work of others.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
On a hard commercial footing the free version is just an open ended trial. It needs to be sweet enough to convince users that it is worth the upgrade to the Pro version. If the user doesn't like the program or walks because he has seen something more suitable then it isn't really a problem for Trimble they didn't make any money from the user anyway. Google's business model was very different, get used to the idea that SU will no longer be subsidised by advertising revenues and Trimble will need to make a profit. If you are making money out of the free version maybe it's payback time if you want SU to survive.
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It would be fun to see stats on how many free users end up purchasing Pro in the end.
But that aside, Trimble already has a customer base which has successfully made them profitable, so I would think it is quite substantial. If Trimble's aim is to have a kind or vertical integration throughout its product range, then this customer base all become potential customers. I have a feeling that the free version will not be a viable tool within this product range, therefore if the version of SketchUp that does allow you to have this integration will be an asset to your business, you will purchase it. In most businesses it is recognized that your best customer is the one you already have, to me, this model makes quite good sense. I also think what Simon said made good sense too. If SketchUp were to be upgraded to the point it could handle very high poly, and nurbs, they would once again be really expanding their client base.
That said, given my experiments with modelers that can handle these, I think there would be a high price in ease of use.
May be a case of "Careful what you wish for". -
I find nothing objectionable about the pricepoint of form.Z ($995) -- if SketchUp were to offer similar functionality in a "Pro" version I would happily pay an equal amount.
I don't think this small amount of money is the issue for most Pro version users -- we can justify the expense if we are making money from it. Over the course of a year there is not much difference between a cost of $500 and $1000... if you are even moderately successful the added functionality would easily pay for itself in better productivity.
However, it is now my belief that Bacus would never allow SketchUp to become that powerful -- he is obsessed with the "less is more" concept (both in UI design and modeling) and resistant to change.
I'll wait and see what comes out when 2013 hits, but my finger is hovering over the purchase button of several competing packages... if I do purchase a competing package you can be sure I won't waste my money upgrading SketchUp Pro.
I know I'm really coming off harsh in these posts -- and I wish I could clearly state my position without doing so... but I have to make it clear I've got one foot out the door, and it will take something exceptional to make me decide to stay. Based on his recent comments in these forums I don't believe John has "exceptional" in the works.
Best,
Jason. -
@sketch3d.de said:
@d12dozr said:
...new users may just migrate to other free alternatives (of which there are many!).
because I'm not aware of just one alternative app I'd love to hear all of them? ... Blender, you're kiddin'
- 123D
- Openscad
- K3DSurf
- TopMod
- Wings3D
- Sculptris
- Blender. Yes Blender. I don't like it, you don't like it, but the fact remains there are LOTS of people using it, and loving it.
This list reflects a few alternatives (there are more!) for how I use Sketchup, designing for 3D printing. For architectural work, not one of these are good alternatives, but I'm guessing many of the free users are not using it for architectural work either.
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
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@jason_maranto said:
However, it is now my belief that Bacus would never allow SketchUp to become that powerful -- he is obsessed with the "less is more" concept (both in UI design and modeling) and resistant to change.
still the same ol' misunderstanding, being simple and small (aka 'ease-of-use') is the idea behind and the concept of SU.
SU never was targeted or intended as an exact CAD resp. full-blown AEC/BIM system and hopefully never will be. There is enough mature and settled competition in this area, definitely no need to invent the wheel again. If you need something full blown, do not ask SU for developing in this direction but use/buy the appropriate tool required.
@jason_maranto said:
of several competing packages...
I would be interested to hear what you see as a competing package. ArchiCAD/Revit/Allplan, you're kiddin'
jm2cts,
Norbert -
That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small" -- clearly there is a large demand for SketchUp to be other than "simple and small", and only a fool would ignore that demand.
If there are going to be several versions of Pro then there is certainly room for one that is made for this market-share.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small"
How many of that "massive number of plugins" are truly beneficial. I bet there are very few that a user will run on a daily basis. Many will be a niche solution for those doing repetative tasks and some for the lazy who haven't grabbed the core program. There are a few shining lights and they are the ones which advance the capabilities of SU by processing complex maths to provide the right solution such as Fredo's bezier plug. Hopefully some of these better examples will be incorporated into the core now we have Trimble commited to developemnt but SU doesn't require pages of buttons for every possible task to be efficient.
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Really? I can name at least 25 indispensable plugins by a wide variety of authors -- most of which are pay solutions.
I'm not saying SketchUp should steal the pay plugins lunch (or even the free plugins)... I'm saying either buy those out or hire the people who made them (as freelance or in-house) to incorporate the best into a proper "pro" modeling package.
The real issue I have with the plugins is the sheer diversity of UI conventions necessary to use them -- if they were all brought under a unified UI philosophy where actions taken would translate well across all modeling functions then everything would be much better for the end user. As it stands now each plugin author has their own unique conventions, which is a real pain.
BTW have you ever paid any attention to the occasional SketchUp screenshot thread around here? About a bazillion icons on every side of Sketchup is typical for most power-users -- this is a joke, and flies directly into the face of the design goals of the SketchUp UI.
Best,
Jason. -
My $0.02
I'm a cheap SOB from way back. It is a hobby platform for me in my retirement. So I don't expect to buy SU Pro anytime soon. I don't use quite a lot of current SU Free features anyway, so the extra stuff in Pro would not be of great value to me.
That being said, a cupla things come to mind.
I doubt very much Trimble bought SU to sell and profit from SU Pro. I don't even think the sales of SU Pro come anywhere near the expense of keeping SU development alive. Google bought SU not to profit from it directly but as an adjunct to Google Earth, and the ad revenue it would bring. THAT would support SU development. Pro sales would be gravy.
Keep in mind, Google gives almost all it's stuff away free; search, maps, earth, mapview, streetview, Android, etc. Google SELLS advertising for revenue and makes a killing on that. As a result of giving away their freebies, they make more money than Scrooge McDuck.
Just visit a Google office anywhere for proof. But Trimble isn't a Google.From all the posts pertaining to Trimble's buyout of SU one thing became clear. Trimble is in the business of Geo-Location and sells devices to support that. I've said this before, they want to include the SU engine into their products, and buying SU outright gets around any copyrights, patents, royalties and most important, the right to prioritize work to meet Trimble's needs, not yours nor mine. (bug fixes foremost)
It does not cost anymore to give away a function limited free version as it does to sell a full function Pro version. How many of us would actually buy a Pro version if free was not available?
I would hazard a guess that not enough at $500 or $700+ a pop to pay 1 senior analyst for a year.How many of us actually buy plugins? Free plugins are the real wizards behind the curtain. Most of the real functionality behind SU now lies in the likes of Curviloft, Tools on Surface, JPP, Solid Inspector/Solver, and a whole lot of others. I'll bet if free went away, most of us would keep V8 alive forever with new plugins to mimic almost anything that the Pro version could offer. And Trimble would not care less if we do.
And even if we had to buy a Pro version, we would still need the plugins. Google almost never did, (and I suspect Trimble never would either) incorporate an outside developed plugin into the core code and functionality.
The next SU update will be telling, and even more-so, the one after that. They will define whether Trimble pays the user community any mind as to feature inclusion and bug fixes, versus doing stuff to meet mainly their own agenda.
Su has another important value to Trimble. Because it is free and many people use it (and Pro) professionally, it behooves Trimble to keep the SU user community "happy" and to educate those that use or could use Trimble's products; that SU and Trimble's products are compatible. That alone will sell bunches of both product and SU Pro.
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I know it's a long shot -- which is why I have one foot out of the door already.
One thing I find very puzzling -- if Trimble did in fact buy SketchUp to gain access to its user base for advertising its other products, then it has done a very poor job of it over the last 6 months.
I really have to wonder what value the free version represents to Trimble at all -- If I was an executive at Trimble, I would make finding a way to profit from the free version priority number one. After all, they spent alot of money for this and so far it isn't doing squat for them.
Best,
Jason. -
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
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We are many to talk around one thing I would like to clearly define.
All these free essential plugins that make Su free and pro an efficient software nowadays give us some rights on it. The trainings and tutorials that are given for free also give us some rights on it. The all splendid models that are shared for free with often their invaluable making-of give some rights on it.
No contract, no paper signed. But
SketchUP now belongs for a significant part to its users community.If tomorrow the users community leave the scene bringing back their skill, their enthusiasm, their models, their plugins, what is going to remain? just a poor overpassed genie soft.
That situation can happen if a significant free version is discontinued, if the community is disconnected from the upgrades.
And yes there are things really more awful to digest that happen in the world every day..simon.
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@pbacot said:
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
Guys, I think what Norbert is getting at is that SketchUp was put into a very unusual situation by Google. Lets be honest with ourselves here. Those of us that were using SketchUp prior to the Google take over and the launch of the free version to the masses will remember there was quite a bit of shock and dare I say it, disgust in the existing Pro using community. One prominent member of the community GM upped and left for Modo!
I also realise that a few software apps had free versions at the time of Google's action and it has become common in recent years, all be it with much cut down versions of the pay for apps in most cases.
In the case of Google they obviously intended to use SketchUp to enhance their other business interests and they also were not a CAD company, it was simply a vehicle to make more cash for them. However they owned the application after the purchase and could do as they please with it, business is business!
I'll ask the question, how can a company that doesn't have the virtually unlimited funds of Google be expected to upgrade and invest heavily in a free application so that it would remain nearly the same as the Pro version?
The company in question doesn't really appear to have another 'cash cow' that can subsidize this like Google's AdSense! Yes, they (Trimble) obviously have other applications that would greatly benefit from a 'touch' of SketchUp but I still imagine SketchUp will have to 'pay its way' to a large degree and I also feel its more than capable of doing so if handled properly.
On the matter of the User Base in some way owning SketchUp! I do agree with this to a certain extent but in spirit only. SketchUp has grown to be what it is today in much part via the efforts of 3rd party developers because of this 'feeling' /attitude. At the same time we have to keep in mind that the code is locked up in Trimble's safe and they own the application not the community.
I imagine a reasonable and fair way through this stage of SketchUp's further development would be for Trimble to progress with the development of SketchUp in its intended Pro forms, particularly for the AEC sector and at the same time keep a reasonably robust and useful free version that will remain true to the **'3D for Everyone!'**ethos.
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@mike lucey said:
On the matter of the User Base in some way owning SketchUp! I do agree with this to a certain extent but in spirit only.
Well , fair enough .
There were so much spirit in those days when it all begun .
Spirit melted with matter would be great in the next release . Will see .
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@pbacot said:
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
My position is don't take anything away from the existing free version. If Trimble needs to further differentiate the free vs. pro versions, then add features to the pro version, but leave the free version as is.
You make a great point though, if Sketchup's core architecture is changed (vs. just adding new tools), then it wouldn't make sense to offer the outdated free version.
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I agree that free SU should be up to date, at least in core functionality, compared to future Pro versions of SU.
Seeing as we may well have a number of Pro versions in the future, probably at differing price levels, I wonder should there be a broad price range, $0, $50, $100 ........ up to $????? All offering more and more to the user!
This would allow for an full speed free basic version. If the user of a particular 'level' of SU wanted to bring it up the ladder a little they might buy further modules?
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Don't even have a guess as to what may happen to the free version. I was at my local Trimble distriber last week and according to them Trimble is throwing lots of $ and resourses at SU development though they didn't give me any specifics if they had any. I do think Trimble will move SU from a "hobbyist" software to a "pro" modeler and cad package to eventually compete with Autodesk. Some things seem to be pointing that way, Civil 3D 2011 & 2012 had functions to import Google Earth images, contours, and/or meshes (see pic), Autodesk Labs even had a plugin for Autocad to geolocate a 3D model similiar to how SU does it. That functionality is now gone from Civil 3D 2013, the Autocad plugin is gone, there is a new one for Civil 3D that uses Bing maps. Just saying....
Mike
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@alpro said:
I do think Trimble will move SU from a "hobbyist" software to a "pro" modeler and cad package to eventually compete with Autodesk.
MikeYou could well be right Mike. In the past, SketchUp developed a 'shake hands' policy with other CAD applications and it still does with the current Pro version. Will that change in the future? Maybe not, but I think Trimble could have their eye on AutoDesk's 'crown' or at the very least require them to 'push over in the bed'
It will be interesting to see how things pan out in 2013 and whether or not Trimble is going in this direction. Building on SketchUp's 'ease of use' will help them on their way but some serious 'beefing up' will be required to SketchUp's core if they are to take on AutoDesk.
AutoDesk's foundation is still built on a 'word processor' approach in my opinion (my use of the application goes way back to the early eighties), whereas SketchUp's foundation was built on the 'doodle on a napkin' approach. The latter feels the more natural for designers and the former, a more natural approach for engineering minds.
There are lots of debates on the Net about SketchUp v AutoCAD, here for example,
Sketchup vs AutoCAD Architecture
http://forums.cgarchitect.com/28151-sketchup-vs-autocad-architecture.html
The debate currently is not valid in my opinion as they are two different type vehicles designed to travel on different type roads. The end destination is the same though, in the case of Building / Architecture at any rate.I think a new 'road' has to be found and there seems to be a lot informed opinion that this new road will be BIM (Building Information Modeling) and as we can see Trimble are very serious about BIM with its acquisitions of late, Tekla etc.
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