Trimble & Sketchup 64 bit
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@pixero said:
I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode.
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
@pixero said:
I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.This is the kind of requests that makes more sense. The development team can address this more directly when we tell them exactly where the pain lies.
Explode is one of them things that's incredible slow - I also which this could be improved. -
@thomthom said:
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
In that case horray! -
@pixero said:
@thomthom said:
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
In that case horray!No - not inside - but they can spawn their own 64bit process which they send the data to - while their UI reside within SketchUp. Thea already does that in a way - it sends the model data to their own studio solution which is 64bit.
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In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.
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@pixero said:
@thomthom said:
Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.
OK, these are the "core" things I would like:
I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode.
I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.
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@pixero said:
In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.
I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now. It's a matter of how they design the application. But this just illustrates how requesting technical features which one assumes will solve the actual problem just becomes confusing.
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@thomthom said:
I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now.
Well, take VRay for an example. When I still was using it (v1.49.01) I often had problems rendering "heavy" scenes in high resolution (5000 to 6000 pixels wide) which often ended in a crash or just simply refused to save the image when rendering finished.
Had to use workarounds with Vray image files which made the preview of the render in progress not work.
My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit? -
@pixero said:
My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit?
Yes, but that's a design issue of V-Ray for SketchUp because they designed their application to fully run inside SketchUp. That is the responsibility of V-Ray for SketchUp - not for SketchUp itself. Nothing prevents VfSU developers from spawning their own 64bit process and use that.
Their application needs 64bit - in which they are the one responsible to design their application to be able to do so. You cannot expect SketchUp to do the work for every extension developer. -
I do not believe Vray has a studio build/ stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit, on the other hand Thea does have a studio version 64 bit that can be used in the way Thomthom was mentioning.
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@solo said:
I do not believe Vray has a studio build
http://www.evermotion.org/modelshop/show_product/v-ray-standalone/2703/0/0/
@solo said:
stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit
V-Ray exist in 64bit version. V-Ray for SketchUp does not because their current design is to run fully inside the SketchUp process.
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I still don't quite understand. You say they can spawn their own 64bit process.
If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export*(like with Thea)* can it still be 64bit?
If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
If not, were back to the need for the host (SU) to be 64bit, right? -
@phillip said:
Sketchup does not run in isolation, as the virtual world moves forward one has the right to hope that each part of their solution will move forward with it and just as importantly - to voice their concern when it doesn't...
From my reading at least, the same concerns are shared by many, moreover there are also those with contemporary hardware purchased as a result of the demands of their other software finding difficulty running Sketchup fluidly. That's a concern for any office that includes Sketchup as part of their solution.Exactly the sentiment I am trying to express. Give me an old machine, I'll run SU and never have any complaints. However demands of other programs require newer machines with different specs. Those specs have rendered SU obsolete (hopefully just for the moment) since it won't run. I don't need better performance. I need the program to perform. Its got to run. I have to run a 64 bit machine for other programs. Ergo I need SU to run on a 64 bit platform.
Regardless how much of my system it actually utilizes (I'm not a tech guru, obviously) I just need functionality. It's just not practicable to expect users to not upgrade systems, or to run two machines side by side - most of us do not have this luxury, especially in the workplace environment.
I was hoping you folks might have heard about Trimble planning on doing something to help those of us out that are currently finding SU impossible to use. I wasn't having luck finding any references to this myself - my favorite G search engine has finally let me down. I am hoping that by bringing this question to the attention of other SU users out there, and those that frequent the blogs and other industry news sources that I'd find someone who could share some info on these developments, perhaps even someone on the SU development team , or MS software testers who have worked on these issues, or Trimble folks that could point us all in the right direction...
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@pixero said:
If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export (like with Thea) can it still be 64bit?
Anything that runs inside SketchUp must be 32bit. But the 32bit process can send the data off to a 64bit process. You make the UI be hosted in SU's 32bit process, but make a 64bit background process do the rendering. Like the DR Spawner for instance - it receives the data, processes it, renders, and sends the resulting data back.
@pixero said:
If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
Don't know - can't answer that one. I could make a wild guess - that's it's easier to just run it inside, and it will work for most models.Just because something is possible doesn't make it easy.
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Thanks for clearifying.
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OK -- I resisted the temptation to post about these issues for quite some time but I'm going to throw an alternate viewpoint out there for those who do develop render engine plugins (which I am doing, but not for SketchUp).
It is not the responsibility of the plugin maker to re-invent the wheel just to have the program perform competitively with comparable software packages. It is in Trimbles best interest (and their responsibility) to make sure Sketchup IS competitive with comparative software packages (and here I'm talking about the Pro version).
For too long the SketchUp dev team have "passed the buck" to the plugin developers to keep the software even remotely usable at the level of other packages. This is a poor model for several reasons, but the most important is because at any point in time Trimble can change its mind and make hundreds/thousands of man-hours of plugin developers time moot by virtue of making changes in the host app.
As a developer I would say that it is unreasonable to expect developers to invest time in creating proprietary solutions that will very likely be made obsolete within a version or two. Whether they like it or not Sketchup will be 64-bit soon or it will be a dinosaur(extinct)... it's as simple as that.
Best,
Jason. -
@nickelessryan said:
I need the program to perform. Its got to run. I have to run a 64 bit machine for other programs. Ergo I need SU to run on a 64 bit platform.
What do you mean? I run 64bit windows 7 and sketchup works just fine. What is the specific problem you are having?
@unknownuser said:
Regardless how much of my system it actually utilizes (I'm not a tech guru, obviously) I just need functionality. It's just not practicable to expect users to not upgrade systems, or to run two machines side by side - most of us do not have this luxury, especially in the workplace environment.
Why would you need to run a system side by side? Can you not run sketchup at all? It may be an installation issue (or graphics hardware as others mentioned)
@unknownuser said:
... help those of us out that are currently finding SU impossible to use.
Can you be specific? -
@jason_maranto said:
It is not the responsibility of the plugin maker to re-invent the wheel just to have the program perform competitively with comparable software packages. It is in Trimbles best interest (and their responsibility) to make sure Sketchup IS competitive with comparative software packages (and here I'm talking about the Pro version).
Still talking about 64bit? What would you have to be re-inventing?
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@solo said:
I do not believe Vray has a studio build/ stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit, on the other hand Thea does have a studio version 64 bit that can be used in the way Thomthom was mentioning.
I use the standalone vray in Blender, and it's pretty f-ing sweet. Proxies, 64bit, working DR, dome light,... the list goes on. If it can be an option in the future to export a scene from vfsu to a "*.vrscene" format, then that scene can be rendered with the standalone.
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@nickelessryan said:
However demands of other programs require newer machines with different specs. Those specs have rendered SU obsolete ... since it won't run. ... I have to run a 64 bit machine for other programs. Ergo I need SU to run on a 64 bit platform.
why should SU not work on a recent machine with W7 x64 as OS?
at least if not using a lame shared video subsystem as e.g. the intel HD graphcis which does not fully/reliably support OpenGL and therefore does not comply with the SU system requirements.
Norbert
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@thomthom said:
Still talking about 64bit? What would you have to be re-inventing?
Yes. A system for transferring data between 32-bit and 64-bit processes -- it's completely not necessary for a plugin author to do this, and SketchUp is one of the only (supposedly professional) programs I know that would even suggest such a thing be created by a plugin author. And, as I already said, this labor would be rendered redundant once SketchUp moves to 64-bit.
Whether 64-bit is needful for SketchUp processes is almost irrelevant -- it is needful for nearly every other software one might use in conjunction with SketchUp... and is already supported as such.This is a roadblock for developers to do their best work, and one of the things that makes SketchUp less powerful than the competition. SketchUp is behind, and only getting further behind by the day.
But even that is irrelevant -- somebody at Trimble will force the dev team to embrace 64-bit and when that happens won't the "32-bit forever" apologist backtracking be fun to watch.
Best,
Jason.
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