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    Trimble & Sketchup 64 bit

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    • thomthomT Offline
      thomthom
      last edited by

      What do you expect from 64bit SketchUp? All it would do is allow more memory to be used.
      And so far - even with the largest model I have never ever experienced SketchUp to run out of memory. (The only exception has been when using V-Ray for SketchUp - but that's an issue that belongs to V-Ray for SketchUp because they do the rendering within the SketchUp process instead of hosting their own.)

      A lot of people think that 64bit will make applications go faster - which just isn't the case. It can in fact become slower - because the data is now double the size. It's far from a magic bullet.

      Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.

      Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
      List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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      • thomthomT Offline
        thomthom
        last edited by

        @numerobis said:

        @aerilius said:

        In short, not all softwares can be made multi-core (no 3d modeller is multicore).

        i think they will have to be made supporting multicore in the future since this will be the way processor power will evolve... i seems that there will be no real speed gains in the near future for single thread performance

        The modelling software out there that promotes themselves to have multi-core support generally all have mulitcore support in the render engine. The modelling engine will generally be single-core - like SketchUp.

        Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
        List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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        • N Offline
          numerobis
          last edited by

          @thomthom said:

          The modelling engine will generally be single-core - like SketchUp.

          for now... yes

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          • thomthomT Offline
            thomthom
            last edited by

            @numerobis said:

            @thomthom said:

            The modelling engine will generally be single-core - like SketchUp.

            for now... yes

            I wouldn't hold my breath for this to change. Some, lots actually, processes simply cannot be split up and done in parallel and have to be done linearly. It's a logical problem that cannot be solved by throwing more processors at it. Like 64bit, mulit-core isn't a magic bullet and there are other ways to gain performance.

            Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
            List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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            • PixeroP Offline
              Pixero
              last edited by

              @thomthom said:

              Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.

              OK, these are the "core" things I would like:
              I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode. 😛
              I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
              I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.

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              • thomthomT Offline
                thomthom
                last edited by

                @pixero said:

                I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode. 😛

                Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?

                @pixero said:

                I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
                I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.

                This is the kind of requests that makes more sense. The development team can address this more directly when we tell them exactly where the pain lies.
                Explode is one of them things that's incredible slow - I also which this could be improved.

                Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                • PixeroP Offline
                  Pixero
                  last edited by

                  @thomthom said:

                  Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?

                  I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
                  Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
                  In that case horray!

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                  • thomthomT Offline
                    thomthom
                    last edited by

                    @pixero said:

                    @thomthom said:

                    Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?

                    I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
                    Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
                    In that case horray!

                    No - not inside - but they can spawn their own 64bit process which they send the data to - while their UI reside within SketchUp. Thea already does that in a way - it sends the model data to their own studio solution which is 64bit.

                    Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                    List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                    • PixeroP Offline
                      Pixero
                      last edited by

                      In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.

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                      • J Offline
                        jpalm32
                        last edited by

                        @pixero said:

                        @thomthom said:

                        Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.

                        OK, these are the "core" things I would like:
                        I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode. 😛
                        I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
                        I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.

                        👍 👍

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                        • thomthomT Offline
                          thomthom
                          last edited by

                          @pixero said:

                          In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.

                          I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now. It's a matter of how they design the application. But this just illustrates how requesting technical features which one assumes will solve the actual problem just becomes confusing.

                          Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                          List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                          • PixeroP Offline
                            Pixero
                            last edited by

                            @thomthom said:

                            I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now.

                            Well, take VRay for an example. When I still was using it (v1.49.01) I often had problems rendering "heavy" scenes in high resolution (5000 to 6000 pixels wide) which often ended in a crash or just simply refused to save the image when rendering finished.
                            Had to use workarounds with Vray image files which made the preview of the render in progress not work.
                            My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit?

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                            • thomthomT Offline
                              thomthom
                              last edited by

                              @pixero said:

                              My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit?

                              Yes, but that's a design issue of V-Ray for SketchUp because they designed their application to fully run inside SketchUp. That is the responsibility of V-Ray for SketchUp - not for SketchUp itself. Nothing prevents VfSU developers from spawning their own 64bit process and use that.
                              Their application needs 64bit - in which they are the one responsible to design their application to be able to do so. You cannot expect SketchUp to do the work for every extension developer.

                              Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                              List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                              • soloS Offline
                                solo
                                last edited by

                                I do not believe Vray has a studio build/ stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit, on the other hand Thea does have a studio version 64 bit that can be used in the way Thomthom was mentioning.

                                http://www.solos-art.com

                                If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                                • thomthomT Offline
                                  thomthom
                                  last edited by

                                  @solo said:

                                  I do not believe Vray has a studio build

                                  Just a moment...

                                  favicon

                                  (www.evermotion.org)

                                  @solo said:

                                  stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit

                                  V-Ray exist in 64bit version. V-Ray for SketchUp does not because their current design is to run fully inside the SketchUp process.

                                  Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                                  List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                                  • PixeroP Offline
                                    Pixero
                                    last edited by

                                    I still don't quite understand. You say they can spawn their own 64bit process.
                                    If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export*(like with Thea)* can it still be 64bit?
                                    If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
                                    If not, were back to the need for the host (SU) to be 64bit, right?

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                                    • N Offline
                                      nickelessryan
                                      last edited by

                                      @phillip said:

                                      Sketchup does not run in isolation, as the virtual world moves forward one has the right to hope that each part of their solution will move forward with it and just as importantly - to voice their concern when it doesn't...
                                      From my reading at least, the same concerns are shared by many, moreover there are also those with contemporary hardware purchased as a result of the demands of their other software finding difficulty running Sketchup fluidly. That's a concern for any office that includes Sketchup as part of their solution.

                                      Exactly the sentiment I am trying to express. Give me an old machine, I'll run SU and never have any complaints. However demands of other programs require newer machines with different specs. Those specs have rendered SU obsolete (hopefully just for the moment) since it won't run. I don't need better performance. I need the program to perform. Its got to run. I have to run a 64 bit machine for other programs. Ergo I need SU to run on a 64 bit platform.

                                      Regardless how much of my system it actually utilizes (I'm not a tech guru, obviously) I just need functionality. It's just not practicable to expect users to not upgrade systems, or to run two machines side by side - most of us do not have this luxury, especially in the workplace environment.

                                      I was hoping you folks might have heard about Trimble planning on doing something to help those of us out that are currently finding SU impossible to use. I wasn't having luck finding any references to this myself - my favorite G search engine has finally let me down. I am hoping that by bringing this question to the attention of other SU users out there, and those that frequent the blogs and other industry news sources that I'd find someone who could share some info on these developments, perhaps even someone on the SU development team , or MS software testers who have worked on these issues, or Trimble folks that could point us all in the right direction...

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                                      • thomthomT Offline
                                        thomthom
                                        last edited by

                                        @pixero said:

                                        If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export (like with Thea) can it still be 64bit?

                                        Anything that runs inside SketchUp must be 32bit. But the 32bit process can send the data off to a 64bit process. You make the UI be hosted in SU's 32bit process, but make a 64bit background process do the rendering. Like the DR Spawner for instance - it receives the data, processes it, renders, and sends the resulting data back.

                                        @pixero said:

                                        If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
                                        Don't know - can't answer that one. I could make a wild guess - that's it's easier to just run it inside, and it will work for most models.

                                        Just because something is possible doesn't make it easy.

                                        Thomas Thomassen — SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                                        List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                                        • PixeroP Offline
                                          Pixero
                                          last edited by

                                          Thanks for clearifying.

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                                          • jason_marantoJ Offline
                                            jason_maranto
                                            last edited by

                                            OK -- I resisted the temptation to post about these issues for quite some time but I'm going to throw an alternate viewpoint out there for those who do develop render engine plugins (which I am doing, but not for SketchUp).

                                            It is not the responsibility of the plugin maker to re-invent the wheel just to have the program perform competitively with comparable software packages. It is in Trimbles best interest (and their responsibility) to make sure Sketchup IS competitive with comparative software packages (and here I'm talking about the Pro version).

                                            For too long the SketchUp dev team have "passed the buck" to the plugin developers to keep the software even remotely usable at the level of other packages. This is a poor model for several reasons, but the most important is because at any point in time Trimble can change its mind and make hundreds/thousands of man-hours of plugin developers time moot by virtue of making changes in the host app.

                                            As a developer I would say that it is unreasonable to expect developers to invest time in creating proprietary solutions that will very likely be made obsolete within a version or two. Whether they like it or not Sketchup will be 64-bit soon or it will be a dinosaur(extinct)... it's as simple as that.

                                            Best,
                                            Jason.

                                            I create video tutorial series about several 2D & 3D graphics programs.

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