Trimble & Sketchup 64 bit
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@aerilius said:
In short, not all softwares can be made multi-core (no 3d modeller is multicore).
i think they will have to be made supporting multicore in the future since this will be the way processor power will evolve... i seems that there will be no real speed gains in the near future for single thread performance
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"This is an old topic, please inform yourself." Aerilius
This seems a little disingenuous, perhaps spawned from a noble attempt to in some way defend the developers, though to cast dispersions on another as a defence would seem to water down that nobility considerably.
Sketchup does not run in isolation, as the virtual world moves forward one has the right to hope that each part of their solution will move forward with it and just as importantly - to voice their concern when it doesn't. I did do my homework, not only here but in the other place, the mainstream Google forum - though even if I hadn't that should not render any Sketchup user mute.
From my reading at least, the same concerns are shared by many, moreover there are also those with contemporary hardware purchased as a result of the demands of their other software finding difficulty running Sketchup fluidly. That's a concern for any office that includes Sketchup as part of their solution.
Sketchup as an anachronism will benefit no one, moreover it will remove the most intuitive design tool available from the design scene without the prospect of a mature alternative for some time. Not good.
Further, the design phase usually involves a concept and sometimes some mild construction drawing giving direction as to the likely direction for tricky documentation - layout is a good mechanism for the latter. The glaring omission from Sketchup's package is a means of fluidly rendering the concept at world standard to communicate the concept professionally - that will likely call for a 64bit render engine with the full power of current technology.
In summary then, although most Sketchup users would find an inbuilt plugin organizer a quantum leap forward, it is likely to be of little long term consequence if Sketchup doesn't keep abreast with changing technology.
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What do you expect from 64bit SketchUp? All it would do is allow more memory to be used.
And so far - even with the largest model I have never ever experienced SketchUp to run out of memory. (The only exception has been when using V-Ray for SketchUp - but that's an issue that belongs to V-Ray for SketchUp because they do the rendering within the SketchUp process instead of hosting their own.)A lot of people think that 64bit will make applications go faster - which just isn't the case. It can in fact become slower - because the data is now double the size. It's far from a magic bullet.
Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.
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@numerobis said:
@aerilius said:
In short, not all softwares can be made multi-core (no 3d modeller is multicore).
i think they will have to be made supporting multicore in the future since this will be the way processor power will evolve... i seems that there will be no real speed gains in the near future for single thread performance
The modelling software out there that promotes themselves to have multi-core support generally all have mulitcore support in the render engine. The modelling engine will generally be single-core - like SketchUp.
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@numerobis said:
@thomthom said:
The modelling engine will generally be single-core - like SketchUp.
for now... yes
I wouldn't hold my breath for this to change. Some, lots actually, processes simply cannot be split up and done in parallel and have to be done linearly. It's a logical problem that cannot be solved by throwing more processors at it. Like 64bit, mulit-core isn't a magic bullet and there are other ways to gain performance.
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@thomthom said:
Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.
OK, these are the "core" things I would like:
I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode.
I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups. -
@pixero said:
I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode.
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
@pixero said:
I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.This is the kind of requests that makes more sense. The development team can address this more directly when we tell them exactly where the pain lies.
Explode is one of them things that's incredible slow - I also which this could be improved. -
@thomthom said:
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
In that case horray! -
@pixero said:
@thomthom said:
Why not ask the render engines to sort this out them selves? By spawning their own process - instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for SketchUp to do the work for them?
I was under the impression that the host application (SU) had to be 64 bit to be able to run a 64 bit renderer inside?
Does this mean Vray or Thea could run in 64bit mode inside a 32bit SU?
In that case horray!No - not inside - but they can spawn their own 64bit process which they send the data to - while their UI reside within SketchUp. Thea already does that in a way - it sends the model data to their own studio solution which is 64bit.
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In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.
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@pixero said:
@thomthom said:
Instead of fixating on a technical implementation, it's better to ask for the ultimate goal: better performance. There are many many ways to achieve better performance and the developers who has the knowledge of the SketchUp core knows best how to do that.
OK, these are the "core" things I would like:
I want render engines to be able to work inside SketchUp in 64bit mode.
I want to be able to open and work with polygon heavy scenes that make SU stall for up to 30 minutes just by opening them or bugsplat or mysteriously make soft/smooth edges hard.
I don't want SU to crash when exploding polygon heavy groups.
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@pixero said:
In that case I still want to be able to run a 64bit renderer inside SU.
I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now. It's a matter of how they design the application. But this just illustrates how requesting technical features which one assumes will solve the actual problem just becomes confusing.
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@thomthom said:
I assume you want to use the UI for a render within SketchUp - and that is possible. It's just that "under the hood" the render engine sends the data form the model to an external 64bit process - which is perfectly possible now.
Well, take VRay for an example. When I still was using it (v1.49.01) I often had problems rendering "heavy" scenes in high resolution (5000 to 6000 pixels wide) which often ended in a crash or just simply refused to save the image when rendering finished.
Had to use workarounds with Vray image files which made the preview of the render in progress not work.
My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit? -
@pixero said:
My belief is that that was caused by it beeing 32bit?
Yes, but that's a design issue of V-Ray for SketchUp because they designed their application to fully run inside SketchUp. That is the responsibility of V-Ray for SketchUp - not for SketchUp itself. Nothing prevents VfSU developers from spawning their own 64bit process and use that.
Their application needs 64bit - in which they are the one responsible to design their application to be able to do so. You cannot expect SketchUp to do the work for every extension developer. -
I do not believe Vray has a studio build/ stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit, on the other hand Thea does have a studio version 64 bit that can be used in the way Thomthom was mentioning.
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@solo said:
I do not believe Vray has a studio build
http://www.evermotion.org/modelshop/show_product/v-ray-standalone/2703/0/0/
@solo said:
stand alone version which may be the reason it's limited to 32 bit
V-Ray exist in 64bit version. V-Ray for SketchUp does not because their current design is to run fully inside the SketchUp process.
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I still don't quite understand. You say they can spawn their own 64bit process.
If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export*(like with Thea)* can it still be 64bit?
If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
If not, were back to the need for the host (SU) to be 64bit, right? -
@phillip said:
Sketchup does not run in isolation, as the virtual world moves forward one has the right to hope that each part of their solution will move forward with it and just as importantly - to voice their concern when it doesn't...
From my reading at least, the same concerns are shared by many, moreover there are also those with contemporary hardware purchased as a result of the demands of their other software finding difficulty running Sketchup fluidly. That's a concern for any office that includes Sketchup as part of their solution.Exactly the sentiment I am trying to express. Give me an old machine, I'll run SU and never have any complaints. However demands of other programs require newer machines with different specs. Those specs have rendered SU obsolete (hopefully just for the moment) since it won't run. I don't need better performance. I need the program to perform. Its got to run. I have to run a 64 bit machine for other programs. Ergo I need SU to run on a 64 bit platform.
Regardless how much of my system it actually utilizes (I'm not a tech guru, obviously) I just need functionality. It's just not practicable to expect users to not upgrade systems, or to run two machines side by side - most of us do not have this luxury, especially in the workplace environment.
I was hoping you folks might have heard about Trimble planning on doing something to help those of us out that are currently finding SU impossible to use. I wasn't having luck finding any references to this myself - my favorite G search engine has finally let me down. I am hoping that by bringing this question to the attention of other SU users out there, and those that frequent the blogs and other industry news sources that I'd find someone who could share some info on these developments, perhaps even someone on the SU development team , or MS software testers who have worked on these issues, or Trimble folks that could point us all in the right direction...
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@pixero said:
If I want a renderer that runs inside SU without the need to export (like with Thea) can it still be 64bit?
Anything that runs inside SketchUp must be 32bit. But the 32bit process can send the data off to a 64bit process. You make the UI be hosted in SU's 32bit process, but make a 64bit background process do the rendering. Like the DR Spawner for instance - it receives the data, processes it, renders, and sends the resulting data back.
@pixero said:
If so, why haven't I've heard of any 3:rd part renderer for SU that works like that?
Don't know - can't answer that one. I could make a wild guess - that's it's easier to just run it inside, and it will work for most models.Just because something is possible doesn't make it easy.
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