Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@mike lucey said:
I don't have much more to say on the subject and will bow out now.
I bowed out around the bit on humans 'use to live to be 900 years old'... within the past 2000 years
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@ Jeff H., do not knead too much! Man is actually being eternal..., receiving eternal life or eternal tornment.
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either you realised it or not, Cornel. i think you are one of those who keep people away from god in a distance.
threatening, scaring and imposing more on bad news from scriptures wont help much calling people to get closer to their god.
not to mention that Constantine + First Council of Nicaea founded. -
@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
I don't have much more to say on the subject and will bow out now.
I bowed out around the bit on humans 'use to live to be 900 years old'... within the past 2000 years
I think your chronology is off a bit there.
-Brodie
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I wish the Rapture would hurry up and get a move on. I know a bunch of charities that could do with tons of good quality used clothing. It would make property values a good deal more affordable too...and used cars...unless you happen to be driving at the time.
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From 'Six Feet Under':
[flash=420,315:234blkq4]http://www.youtube.com/v/1LXuNpF6NVg[/flash:234blkq4]
@escapeartist said:
To those of quiet faith, that do not judge, preach to or disdain, tolerate and even yes - enjoy the company of those around you with differing or even no faiths, I salute you. I personally think that if there were more of your sort faith wouldn't be having such a hard go of it these days.
I'm reasonably confident the vast majority of religious folk fall into the category you describe.
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That's been my experience too. I know there are a good many such on this forum...and thankfully I haven't come across many fruitcakes in my part of the world; just decent folk who have the manners to keep their religion to themselves, or at least within the limits of where it's appreciated. And, back on topic, I'm not personally aware of a single one of them that has any problem with the Big Bang...or Evolution.
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@unknownuser said:
And, back on topic, I'm not personally aware of a single one of them that has any problem with the Big Bang...or Evolution.
I had a conversation with some folks one day about evolution. It went something like this:
Them: "So, you believe in Creationism? God created the heavens and the earth and all that ..."
Me: "Yep."
Them: "But you also support the Darwinian theory of evolution?"
Me: "Yep."
Them: "Then you're confused? You can't have it both ways."
Me: "Nope. One does not invalidate the other and despite an outward appearance of chaos at times, the Universe is actually a pretty orderly place. Electrons spin around a nucleus, planets around suns and the galaxy around it's center. Everything has a purpose and evolution is not outside of that purpose. Now, if you read Genesis it says Man was made a living soul. Tell me what other creature on this planet has a soul other than Man? We're both corporeal and spirit and I prefer to be concerned more with my spirit. If God wants to create a platypus or komodo dragon, who am I to say otherwise?"IMO, being a person of faith doesn't necessarily make one illogical, anti-science, naive, deluded or a fruitcake. If one looks at the Universe and our "reality", it's pretty clear there are physical laws, spiritual laws, and stuff we probably don't have the slightest inclination or understanding of ...
Cheers.
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Where did I say that being a person of faith means you're a fruitcake? I explicitly said that all the churchgoing folk I know believed in both the Big Bang and Evolution...and believing in the Big Bang means that you are comfortable with a universe that is 13.72 billion years old, god induced or not.
If you believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, that waters flooded to the top of Mt Everest (or the earth has conveniently rearranged its topography at some point since that original inundation in order to fool us). If you think that dinosaurs cohabited this planet with man; that every species of marsupial recognised that they were all members of the same club and trekked all the way from Mt Ararat to Australia without leaving a single straggler to set up colonies along the way (except for the possum, which inexplicably decided to head in the opposite direction from all the others and swim the Atlantic to boot)...or any of that other lunacy promulgated by the likes of Ken Ham and Co, then yes, you are seriously deluded.
There is no equivalence. It's not an equally valid theory. It's lunacy.
I think it's also worth pointing out that even in Victorian times, the established church had no problem with the concept of Evolution, already regarded much of the Bible as allegory; and took it for granted that the earth was very considerably older than Archbishop Ussher's earlier estimate of around 4004 BC. Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, after all.
I mention this merely to illustrate just how much backpedalling in the direction of the Dark Ages has been going on by some people who delude themselves into thinking that they are somehow maintaining the faith. They're not; they're regressing....rapidly.
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There are 4 possible versions of the Creation story in the Christian arena and only one of them argues that the world was created in 7 24 hour days and that the earth is young.
Remember that God created science. That means that for those of us who believe, we need to take science seriously.
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I think it's an odd stance as well, but I have to admit, there's a certain elegance to it.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Remember that God created science
Why do you find that so funny? If I believe that God created the world, of course I believe that God created science. It's not an either/or proposition. I can believe in God AND value science.
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@unknownuser said:
Where did I say that being a person of faith means you're a fruitcake? I explicitly said that all the churchgoing folk I know believed in both the Big Bang and Evolution...and believing in the Big Bang means that you are comfortable with a universe that is 13.72 billion years old, god induced or not.
There was no recrimination in my post Alan ...
No, I don't think the Biblical flood extended to the summit of Everest, (archeology and geology has given good evidence that the flood was actually more regional in scope, encompassing the region generally referred to as "the Cradle of Civilization") or that dinosaurs and man co-habitated (please, there is indeed a fossil record), or that the earth is 6000 yrs. old (again, carbon 14 dating and other methods have proven the earth is much older).
What I do believe is that Man was created as a unique being, one possessing a soul, or spirit, if the term is more comfortable. We were created in the image of our Creator, not in the physical sense but in the spiritual one, for what is God, if not spirit? We are exhorted by the Christ to worship God in "truth and in spirit" ... If one takes that in a literal sense, the answer is a simple one, to me at least ...
Cheers.
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[flash=480,360:1b0mczjj]http://www.youtube.com/v/A3yCcXgbKrE?version=3&hl=en_US[/flash:1b0mczjj]
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Hi solo
I think the debate is God versus something else. Science is only a tool used to examine the evidence. People interpret the evidence differently, but neither side can ignore science. If I believe that God created an orderly world, i.e. 2+2=4 etc, than I have no choice but to believe what science proves.
At the end of the day, this all comes down to an opinion. I don't believe that science proves that God didn't create the world. Others do.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Remember that God created science
Good that this thread got a bit more relaxed!
@solo said:
The debate is science versus God
Personally I don't see a reason for the "versus". One could see it the way that the world of God(s/etc.) encloses the world of science, but not vice versa.
Some secrets (the forbidden region of the wave function; what is covered by the blur of Heisenberg uncertainty; beyond the borders of the universe...) will probably always be speculation and belief. What we today suppose as an approximation of a scientific "Truth" can change within few generations into something completely else. What we see as science today could be only a border case of the world (like Newton's Physics are only the limit case of Relativity with v<<c).
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Sorry, Jeff, that came out a little more tetchy than I intended...limitations of forum-speak I guess. In fact all but the first couple of lines was not intended for you at all, but directed at our resident Young Earth Creationist and Rapture advocate.
I guess we ought to draw a distinction between creationists (those who believe that God created the universe) and Creationists...those that believe in the literality of Genesis and are prepared to stand evidence on its head in order to maintain that position. I wouldn't call the former creationists at all; I'd call them mainstream christians...like all the ones I know. In fact our positions are not that different. I originally held a stance pretty much the same as your own.@dropout said:
I don't believe that science proves that God didn't create the world. Others do.
Then they'd be wrong and you'd be right. The existence of God is unfalsifiable. Science can't prove that He didn't create the universe. (I'm using universe rather than world, as I think the world itself can be demonstrated to be simply a part of the ongoing creation of the universe) The best that science can hope to achieve is to demonstrate a completely viable process that doesn't require any godly input, but it can never prove conclusively that He wasn't responsible. Nor is it concerned in doing so. It's not in the business of disproving that which can't be disproven. Any scientific tenet or theory has to be falsifiable...it's a pre-requisite. The existence of God doesn't fall into that category.
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@ ’IdahoJ’, human SOUL is not the same with human SPIRIT! Man is a tripartite being...
@ ’Alan F’. “6000 years old” refers to the MANKIND AGE, not to Earth age...
@ ’Dropout”. The world wasn’t “created in 7 24 hour days”. The same Hebrew term/word used for “day”, means “TIME PERIOD”...
Guys, I'm sorry for you...
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"Lucy" is estimated, by Evolutionist swindlers, to have lived 3.2 million years ago...
It is OK, because naive people believe any cheating... They do not appeal to Logic
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