Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
Guys, it was not a surprise for me to be contradicted, since
“a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)Have a nice New Year!
You are being contradicted because you continuously fail to write anything that isn't an impromptu hodgepodge of sophisms, idées reçues and ideological sloganeering.
Suggesting you're a priori right, doesn't a posteriori lend your musings the sheen of reason.
Nonetheless, happy New Year!
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Happy New Year to you also Cornel.
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@unknownuser said:
You are being contradicted because you continuously fail to write anything that isn't an impromptu hodgepodge of sophisms, idées reçues and ideological sloganeering. Suggesting you're a priori right, doesn't a posteriori lend your musings the sheen of reason.
The pot calls the kettle black ...
Happy New Year.
Cheers.
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Point me to a sophism I've written in this thread.
Edit: happy New Year! If ya'll will excuse me now, "Sherlock"'s on.
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Just found a nice site with responses to common theist arguments, provided with a lot of reference material http://whynogod.wordpress.com/
What do you think, does an absolute morality exists outside of religion?
I started to think about this after I watched the debate by Sam Harris and William Lane Craig - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg The main thought I understood from Harris was that you can't find absolute morality in any cultural context, but it is something that we strive for when trying to achieve the maximum well-being and flourishment of a society, so therefor the moral standards in any society would naturally evolve towards an objective standard for it to strive and survive.Can the human species reach this understanding of absolute morality or will we just destroy ourselves before we do it?
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I'm surprised it hasn't come up before (or I missed it), but The Case for Creation by Lee Strobel is an interesting read.
To quote from Wikipedia, "Strobel received a journalism degree from University of Missouri and a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School, becoming a journalist for The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers for 14 years. He states that he was an atheist and began investigating the Biblical claims about Christ after his wife's conversion. As a result of the evidence he discovered in his investigation, he chose to become a Christian."
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Lee Strobel's books are quite good. I've read all of his work, currently 5 books IIRC, and would recommend them to anyone ... His treatment of the material is probably amongst the most balanced and unbiased you'll find. It's also solidly supported by facts. Strobel goes to great length to talk with recognized experts, both secular and of faith, concerning the Bible and it's content.
Another interesting read is John McRay's "Archeology and the New Testament" ISBN 9780801036088. It's would be fascinating simply for its coverage of ancient places that have been found even if one disregards any biblical connection. If you like ancient history, I'd recommend it on that merit alone.
Cheers.
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I'll sign off with this thought - discussions of this sort are unfortunate. There are those that thrive in an environment of perceived persecution because it makes them feel powerful and secure in whatever it is they believe. They often actively seek martyrdom and indeed, incite views contrary to their own in order to validate their beliefs and feelings. I say unfortunate because isolating oneself in that sheltered cubicle removes tolerance, forbearance, introspection and usually logic from the field of play. The discussion (but thankfully not here at SCF) quickly devolves into name calling an the like.
The universe is vast and complex. Who is to say what exists, though by my feeling it isn't what is written by any organization that suggests that the common human is incapable of conducting life without the morality, leadership and/or monetary support of said organization.
To those of quiet faith, that do not judge, preach to or disdain, tolerate and even yes - enjoy the company of those around you with differing or even no faiths, I salute you. I personally think that if there were more of your sort faith wouldn't be having such a hard go of it these days. This discussion would have ended quite quickly.
Happy new year to all.
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Edited:
@escapeartist said:
To those of quiet faith, that do not judge, preach to or disdain, tolerate and even yes - enjoy the company of those around you with differing or even no faiths, I salute you. I personally think that if there were more of your sort faith wouldn't be having such a hard go of it these days. This discussion would have ended quite quickly.
Good points for those of us with faith to remember. While telling the world that God gave everyone free will, we need to remember that we should do the same and allow those who don't agree with us the same courtesy.
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I think debates like these only strengthen the believers on both sides and at same time generate tolerance.
Its generally an uncomfortable subject for many, maybe because of the way they have been indoctrinated. I include myself in that group. But open and honest debate on all subjects is to be welcomed at all times in my opinion provided that its done in a civil fashion and this debate is most civilised.
For me the bottom line for me is that some form of higher power is or formed what I perceive around me, the Universe. If some folks choose to identify this higher form as their God, I have no difficulty with it as long as they accept that I also have the right to come to my own conclusions.
I don't have much more to say on the subject and will bow out now.
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@mike lucey said:
I don't have much more to say on the subject and will bow out now.
I bowed out around the bit on humans 'use to live to be 900 years old'... within the past 2000 years
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@ Jeff H., do not knead too much! Man is actually being eternal..., receiving eternal life or eternal tornment.
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either you realised it or not, Cornel. i think you are one of those who keep people away from god in a distance.
threatening, scaring and imposing more on bad news from scriptures wont help much calling people to get closer to their god.
not to mention that Constantine + First Council of Nicaea founded. -
@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
I don't have much more to say on the subject and will bow out now.
I bowed out around the bit on humans 'use to live to be 900 years old'... within the past 2000 years
I think your chronology is off a bit there.
-Brodie
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I wish the Rapture would hurry up and get a move on. I know a bunch of charities that could do with tons of good quality used clothing. It would make property values a good deal more affordable too...and used cars...unless you happen to be driving at the time.
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From 'Six Feet Under':
[flash=420,315:234blkq4]http://www.youtube.com/v/1LXuNpF6NVg[/flash:234blkq4]
@escapeartist said:
To those of quiet faith, that do not judge, preach to or disdain, tolerate and even yes - enjoy the company of those around you with differing or even no faiths, I salute you. I personally think that if there were more of your sort faith wouldn't be having such a hard go of it these days.
I'm reasonably confident the vast majority of religious folk fall into the category you describe.
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That's been my experience too. I know there are a good many such on this forum...and thankfully I haven't come across many fruitcakes in my part of the world; just decent folk who have the manners to keep their religion to themselves, or at least within the limits of where it's appreciated. And, back on topic, I'm not personally aware of a single one of them that has any problem with the Big Bang...or Evolution.
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@unknownuser said:
And, back on topic, I'm not personally aware of a single one of them that has any problem with the Big Bang...or Evolution.
I had a conversation with some folks one day about evolution. It went something like this:
Them: "So, you believe in Creationism? God created the heavens and the earth and all that ..."
Me: "Yep."
Them: "But you also support the Darwinian theory of evolution?"
Me: "Yep."
Them: "Then you're confused? You can't have it both ways."
Me: "Nope. One does not invalidate the other and despite an outward appearance of chaos at times, the Universe is actually a pretty orderly place. Electrons spin around a nucleus, planets around suns and the galaxy around it's center. Everything has a purpose and evolution is not outside of that purpose. Now, if you read Genesis it says Man was made a living soul. Tell me what other creature on this planet has a soul other than Man? We're both corporeal and spirit and I prefer to be concerned more with my spirit. If God wants to create a platypus or komodo dragon, who am I to say otherwise?"IMO, being a person of faith doesn't necessarily make one illogical, anti-science, naive, deluded or a fruitcake. If one looks at the Universe and our "reality", it's pretty clear there are physical laws, spiritual laws, and stuff we probably don't have the slightest inclination or understanding of ...
Cheers.
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Where did I say that being a person of faith means you're a fruitcake? I explicitly said that all the churchgoing folk I know believed in both the Big Bang and Evolution...and believing in the Big Bang means that you are comfortable with a universe that is 13.72 billion years old, god induced or not.
If you believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, that waters flooded to the top of Mt Everest (or the earth has conveniently rearranged its topography at some point since that original inundation in order to fool us). If you think that dinosaurs cohabited this planet with man; that every species of marsupial recognised that they were all members of the same club and trekked all the way from Mt Ararat to Australia without leaving a single straggler to set up colonies along the way (except for the possum, which inexplicably decided to head in the opposite direction from all the others and swim the Atlantic to boot)...or any of that other lunacy promulgated by the likes of Ken Ham and Co, then yes, you are seriously deluded.
There is no equivalence. It's not an equally valid theory. It's lunacy.
I think it's also worth pointing out that even in Victorian times, the established church had no problem with the concept of Evolution, already regarded much of the Bible as allegory; and took it for granted that the earth was very considerably older than Archbishop Ussher's earlier estimate of around 4004 BC. Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, after all.
I mention this merely to illustrate just how much backpedalling in the direction of the Dark Ages has been going on by some people who delude themselves into thinking that they are somehow maintaining the faith. They're not; they're regressing....rapidly.
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