Occupy Wall street
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I know what you meant.
On a lighter, more creamy note...
Ben & Jerry's have now got in on the act! Just how cynical is this?
http://www.benjerry.com/activism/occupy-movement/
"Suck up your favourite ('organic'?) ice cream with a clear conscience!"
Rock on bez & jez
They play the environmental card- obviously good PR on their behalf, but one of the main reasons we are paying crazy taxes as well as increased fuel bills is because environmentalists have chosen to play on peoples fear about climate change. So we are now heading for targets we can't achieve, and as a result we must pay more taxes! Consumables cost money. They need massive investment, because energy companies need to pay their shareholders. The profits they make are astronomical. And another big freeze is forecasted in Europe again this year.
This is part of the reason I played the Greenpeace and WWF card before. They're all part of the 'greater picture'!
It is highly likely that this will evoke emotions- but emotions are the reason these games that are played by governments and aforementioned organisations become so personal to the general public- especially the middle classes. -
@unknownuser said:
because environmentalists have chosen to play on peoples fear about climate change
And republicans play on our fear of everything else in order to get huge military contracts to big campaign contributors and stripping us of rights with their Patriot act.
Just out of curiosity, do you believe in global climate change?
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Fear does seem to be a great motivator on all sides. We all use it, for big and small.
I prefer apathy. Apathy motivates to me to do as little as I'd like to. Now again, please vote for me for president.
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Things would be so much better if the OWS crowd was in charge. Oh wait, what is this article I see?
Surprise: OWS protesters don’t like their own wealth redistributed
On second thought, I guess human nature extends even to the OWS crowd...
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@david. said:
On second thought, I guess human nature extends even to the OWS crowd...
this happened in Puerta del Sol , in Madrid. It was the main reason for deciding to get out and desmantle the camping. It lasted over two months which is quite a lot. It is a hard issue to solve. And a very easy way to discredit the movement.
Maybe the way is to get out, do not camp, and return every morning day by day.In any case, I am afraid things are going to get unpredictable as far as euro collapse and thus dollar is closer and closer .
Hi you, Dave H - Supermouse, come a bit down to earth, things are not like you see up there ¡
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I heard an interview yesterday with one of the "spokespersons" of the OWS thing. . .the interviewer kept asking him "What are your goals? What is it you want to achieve? Specifically." The so-called spokesperson could not articulate in any meaningful way what it is they are trying to achieve.
The gist of the interview went like this. . .
Hopey, Changey, Justice and fairness for all. . .etc etc.
Okay. . how? What real things do you want to see happen? How would this be measured? What REAL tangible results are you looking for and how is camping in a tent for a month and urinating on the sidewalk going to help you get that? IF all these wall street guys were taken out into the street and shot how would that help you?
Well.. .Wall Street is just a metaphor for what it is we are protesting against/for! We want economic Justice!
OK What does that mean? Does that mean you want all the stuff--money, cars, opportunities that they have? Then you kinda have to do what they do or something like it.
Well . . .We want free college education for all.
Hmm... and who pays for that? It isn't free to somebody.No answer. . .
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@unknownuser said:
I heard an interview yesterday with one of the "spokespersons" of the OWS thing. . .the interviewer kept asking him "What are your goals? What is it you want to achieve? Specifically." The so-called spokesperson could not articulate in any meaningful way what it is they are trying to achieve.
The gist of the interview went . .
When the civil rights movement started, people didn’t come right out with a big list of demands — they came out in the streets and just said, ‘We’re not going to accept society the way it is" That’s the stage we’re in right now
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I don't see the connection. Back in the 60's the Civil Rights was born because a specific Group of people were illegally denied rights and privileges enjoyed by others. It started out protesting specific wrongs that needed redress. . .equal access to lunch counters, buses, toilets, movie theaters, etc. it blossomed into protesting against voter intimidation, Poll taxes, etc. This came largely in part to great leaders such as Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers and others who could speak for the people and specifically make the case for redress of these wrongs.
These OWS people are all over the map. I need a Job! Give me one! I need my college education paid for! Give it to me! Or in other words Give me Mine!
This is a cut from an op ed I read on Sunday:
@unknownuser said:
Liberal blogger Freddie DeBoer says he is "in broad solidarity with the Occupy Wall Street movement, that I celebrate the spirit of resistance for its own sake." But he finds the student loan aspect of the grievances depressing. He writes, "If the message is 'I went to college and I don't have the job and the car and the lifestyle I was promised,' then none of this means anything. These complaints, I'm sorry to say, are ultimately a way of saying 'I didn't get mine.' That's not a rejection of our failing order. It is an embrace of it in the most cynical terms."
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@unknownuser said:
Or in other words Give me Mine!
i guess if that's what you get from it then that's what you get...
(though i'm kinda thinking you're more interested in finding negatives/inconsistencies in the movement than actually trying to hear/understand the voices)but you have to realize there isn't one thing that's wrong... there isn't one issue being protested.. it's a whole mess of issues and people have had enough..
check out the front page of today's new york times for more on this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/the-occupy-movements-common-thread-is-anger.html
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@solo said:
Just out of curiosity, do you believe in global climate change?
Of course (I believe in global warming). But I also believe that we still don't quite understand what causes it.
But more to the point is what I worry about a growing number of (mainly young) people who have a very low opinion about humanity on the whole. I am also concerned about ways the so called self or government appointed "experts" tell us we are all heading to catastrophe and so dictate to us how we should live. I feel we are fast tracking ourselves on a steady path of regression, (by playing on people's fears about things like runaway population as well as climate change) and I believe this will eventually lead back to a much harder way of life we left in the past, a long time ago. I think many people have forgotten just how hard it used to be, and how hard it used to be without simple things such as pain killers and cures for many illnesses. I should point out that the government love this regressive trend because it means they don't have to invest in new technologies and industry any longer (hence the term "lazy capitalism"). No investment means far fewer jobs.
I have a progressive nature. I'm 100% for the human race as well as our future. I want to help teach my children to design, build a space-age future complete with cars that use highly efficient alternatives to fossil fuels etc. But I also believe that we still need to burn coal as well as oil in order to get there (if you see what I mean?)
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@juanv.soler said:
just in case you have not watched it yet
[attachment=0:11d9h0fd]<!-- ia0 -->harrased police.JPG<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment:11d9h0fd]
perplexed police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N9HvJhilJzo#!Yes indeed, it looks like Sergeant Shamar Thomas has maintained his honour and was displaying (multiple decorations on his chest) his 'right' to walk and make peaceful demonstration on the streets on his home town, New York City!
The 1% will find it very difficult to hold total control without the full unwavering support of the police ..... looks like this support is coming into question!
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I think you're being a tad too optimistic, Mike. It pains me to say this, but I'm relatively certain the current protests won't change anything, and will be forgotten rather quickly. I hope I'm wrong, though.
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Stinkie, I think when the 'comfortable' (like many here on the forums) start to really feel the pinch, we will also be on the streets protesting!
Yes Jeff, There is no single issue people are protesting about and I think this will be the main reason why this movement will grow and grow. As I said in a previous post, to me, there appears to be no 'head' to the movement and this will make it impossible for the 1% to identify exactly where to strike with an iron fist or a fist of cash!
I was reading about the possible reasons for the mess over the weekend and one particular reason struck a cord. That was that globalisation is not working is its present state because it was driven by the 1% of cash Gods not people aiming for a balance.
When Joe Soap goes to a local shop and buys the cheapest suitable shirt he can find, he does not think about the fact that its made in China or India at the time. Joe then wonders why his friend is laid off from his workplace that made shirts in his locality!
The 1% have no difficulty in setting up their manufacturing in China and India, they have no loyalties to any Country only currency and cash is their God! However I feel this policy is now back firing and we are seeing the consequences. The cure? Buy local until a 'balance' is brought back to commerce! The whole economic World is out of balance and nothing will keep spinning unless its balanced.
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@tfdesign said:
.... current leaders (hung parliament, because so few came out to vote), are both ex-Etonians. They have practically no grasp on reality at all.
This is so true Tom but in order for these privileged to get into power they need votes and in their case (UK) they must be relying on 'not so privileged' voters.
Over here (Ireland) we now have a coalition of right / left wing that is operating under the orders of the IMF (International Monitory Fund) and the ESB (European Central Bank). The Country's population and its unborn are being put into slavery to pay foreign bank bond holders (the 1%).
The citizens of Ireland did not borrow this money from these foreign bankers, the Irish Banks did, but they are being forced to pay what the Banks borrowed via heavier and heavier taxation. The new budget this Xmas will be the back breaker and I think the people will rebel.
However, something is happening over here that I think the World might find interesting. We are having a Presidential election in ten days time. While the President has no real power, she / she can refuse to 'sign off' on a Bill passed by the Government. The matter then goes to the Supreme Court for adjudication and the Court's decision is final. The Government cannot, under law, appeal. In other words its a 'done deal' and they have to get on with it.
Now this is where is gets interesting! There are 5 main candidates running. 3 of the 5 will 'toe the line', so to speak. However there is one candidate that, if elected, I think would throw a spanner in the works if his party's policy is to be believed!
I am talking about Martin McGuinness, the Sine Fine Party candidate. As many will know Mr McGuiness is ex IRA and one of the king pins in the Good Friday Agreement which brought peace to Northern Ireland, on the right in the attached picture!
While talking to a very common sense friend yesterday, I was surprised to hear him say that he was going to vote for McGuiness! I asked why! He said its about time this mess came to a head and we got ourselves into a position to rebuild! He explained his thinking in detail and I could not argue with his logic.
Now, Ireland is only a small entity in the EU and only a small dot in the World BUT our banks owe so much money that if there was a mass default it could well bring the Euro crashing!
Some interesting time ahead! McGuiness is on the right in the attached picture.
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Balls'y thread Pete; I applaud you for it.
You know; in Australia we have been shielded from the impact of the GFC somewhat (China's 'fossil fuel' need helps) but seeing the second wave of economic impact hitting Eurporian countries is a worry for all....
But what shits me, and I apologize for the profanities but in Pete's introductory video at 2.55 minutes has to be a poignant moment.
The media.
We have relied on media since the born of tv to open our eyes to the world. What has happened unfortunately is what we are being feed is not neccessarily what we need to consume.
What social media can do is facilitate provocation and in that is an unbiased voice no matter how small an audience. The difference is this audience has the ability to pass judgment on merit.
Politcal society has a lot to learn in the coming decade IMO.....
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Lack of Democracy fuels these protests.The Wall Street crooks get away with stealing billions and our government is doing NOTHING about it, even talking about laxing regulations. The 1% elite keeps us in endless wars, unpayable debt while they are getting richer. The virtual slave labor imports and open borders helped to kill our jobs, our 401 Ks have been robbed (it was all planned) , our crooked and corrupted politicians created financial bubbles that ruined us. It looks that our politicians are not taking the protests seriously enough until there is bloodshed. Then, it may be too late.
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@solo said:
Lack of Democracy fuels these protests.The Wall Street crooks get away with stealing billions and our government is doing NOTHING about it, even talking about laxing regulations. The 1% elite keeps us in endless wars, unpayable debt while they are getting richer. The virtual slave labor imports and open borders helped to kill our jobs, our 401 Ks have been robbed (it was all planned) , our crooked and corrupted politicians created financial bubbles that ruined us. It looks that our politicians are not taking the protests seriously enough until there is bloodshed. Then, it may be too late.
Totally agree. One really has a sense that these guys are going to keep fobbing us off, not realizing just how much anger is brewing - and when it explodes, will be saying "who could have predicted?"!
"Let them eat Brioche" version 2.0
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@unknownuser said:
Lack of Democracy fuels these protests.The Wall Street crooks get away with stealing billions and our government is doing NOTHING about it, even talking about laxing regulations. The 1% elite keeps us in endless wars, unpayable debt while they are getting richer. The virtual slave labor imports and open borders helped to kill our jobs, our 401 Ks have been robbed (it was all planned) , our crooked and corrupted politicians created financial bubbles that ruined us. It looks that our politicians are not taking the protests seriously enough until there is bloodshed. Then, it may be too late.
Totally agreed Pere.
Totally!!! -
@solo said:
Lack of Democracy fuels these protests.The Wall Street crooks get away with stealing billions and our government is doing NOTHING about it, even talking about laxing regulations. The 1% elite keeps us in endless wars, unpayable debt while they are getting richer. The virtual slave labor imports and open borders helped to kill our jobs, our 401 Ks have been robbed (it was all planned) , our crooked and corrupted politicians created financial bubbles that ruined us. It looks that our politicians are not taking the protests seriously enough until there is bloodshed. Then, it may be too late.
I agree 100%!
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@mike lucey said:
The cure? Buy local until a 'balance' is brought back to commerce! The whole economic World is out of balance and nothing will keep spinning unless its balanced.
"The cure"? I disagree. I think that sentiment is far too simplistic. We are far better off in the west precisely because we have been able to trade with poorer countries and take advantage of those workers in 'sweatshops'. If we 'go local', we'll end up in exactly the same place that William Morris found himself in when he tried to mass produce hand made things by craftsmen. ie, hand made materials and wallpaper could only be afforded by the wealthy, whereas the less wealthy put up with poorly produced products.
I am wearing a high quality t-shirt made by GAP, produced in the 3rd world. My t-shirts cost about £8 each, and I have several of them. Some poor sod has had to produce these t-shirts for me. But you know what, although they have been paid next to nothing, they are at least receiving something. I know it's not much, but it is 'something', and this may be the lifeline that's keeping someone alive elsewhere. Withdraw that little bit and what's the alternative? Poverty and prostitution?
On the other hand, all of my trousers are made by a skate company called "Road", and all their garments say "conscience" on them. ie "All of our garments have been made by people who have been paid a decent wage". I assume they're made in Britain? Road Clothing don't say. But wouldn't that be great if the same philosophy could be applied in the 3rd world? Perhaps? But then we may open the same can of worms that I hinted upon in my first paragraph, because Road Jeans come in at about £70 a pair. For the average working class family, that's an awful lot of money for a pair of trousers (they are good- and comfy- last for ages!)
A well known example to help illustrate the above perhaps would be the "Fairtrade" organisation. I have no doubts that Fairtrade set out with good intentions, but here we are now, a worldwide corporation who are hard promoting a green agenda. Fairtrade do not promote the idea of automation, preferring more 'natural' and 'organic' principles of farming, and Fairtrade now are absolutely everywhere. This is all very well, and great PR for the west as we sip organic cafe-latte's and chomp on our Cadbury's Dairy Milk bars and have a nice warm feeling about where it comes from. But in south America children and whole families work their fingers to the bone for pittance, because can't bear the idea of allowing them to use any kind of mass production farming methods or machinery that may either 'harm the planet' or release 'dangerous' greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Really, Fairtrade should be encouraging all of their workers to create mass plantations, which are fully automated. The wealth generated would help feed and educate the workers and their children, as well as fund libraries and hospitals etc. But it's not happening, and the affluent west would prefer to return to a dream world where horses pull carts through cobbled streets- very romantic, but there are people in poor countries still doing just that, who desperately want to get out of that because manual labour on a large scale is just so plain hard!
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