Thoughts about layout

[otb designworks]

So, I am deep into generating a full set of construction drawings with Layout 3. I have used Layout extensively before, but this will be the biggest thing I have put together with it.

I have come up with a list of observations and improvements that would go a long way towards making layout much more efficient and user friendly.

1. Drawing in paper space versus model space is very counter intuitive and frustrating. If I am generating a full set of 1/4"=1' drawings, it serves me no purpose that any lines I draw in Layout have a paper space length as opposed to model space. We can set the scale of the dimension tool and it would be quite helpful if we could do the same for general drawing. This makes a seemingly easy task such as generating a construction grid very time consuming and difficult. I have made grids in Sketchup and tried to use them to get the grid lines to snap to it, but it seems that the inference engine has difficulties with orthographic views and there is a constant inability to snap where I need to.

2. it would be highly helpful if I could have a Sketchup tape measure tool that would allow me to place construction lines that I could snap to.

3. Every time I update the Sketchup model, Layout randomly changes which style I have set for each page. If I had a dollar for every time I had to go through and change all styles back to what I had originally, I would have a pretty good pile of money. Also, when it changes the style, it doesn't update the indicated active style, so I have to first choose the style that is displaying (though it is indicating that it is displaying the one I want), and then choose the one I want. THis is multiple key strokes and waiting for rendering, for each page. And it all stays the same only unitl I update the model again. Very annoying and a huge time waster.

4. When working in Sketchup, I regularly save a new version of the model every day, or after I make major changes. THis allows me to have a backup of every stage of the evolution of the model. So, let's say that I am using the sept.9 version to set up everything in Layout, as I think this will be the final version. Then the client has me make sweeping changes to a part of the model. At this point , I am stuck in Layout with 10's of pages referencing an out of date model. So, now I have to continually update the Sept 9 model, as well as saving newer versions for my backups, so that everything works in Layout. It would be helpful if I could, for the entire document, choose to update the reference model to a newer version.

5. The grouping function in Layout leaves a lot to be desired. Let's say I have my entire title block as a group and I want to edit the date. I double click on an element to access the group and then double click the date to edit. I hit escape and it takes me out of the entire group, which means I have to double click the group again if I want to change the page number. Big time waster, especially if you are talking a bunch of pages.

6. I wish there was a way to set up a custom page numbering system, with user specified placement, font, style, etc that would prompt for editing when I create a new page. Going through numerous pages constantly changing and updating page numbers seems to be a pretty inefficient way to go about things.

7. Let's say I draw 4 elements that I want to group, place, copy repeatedly, and place the copies. It seems that the inference engine goes to pieces when you select multiple pieces to move as one, or group them and try to move the whole thing. I can't get things to snap consistently, and I lose the ability to reliably and repeatedly move things the same amount. So, then I have to move one part to where I want it, and then move everything else, one at a time, so I can get the snapping behavior I expect and need.

8. It would very very helpful if I could change the amount that an element moves when I use the arrow keys (with or without shift) to move it. I very regularly have the situation where I can't get a Layout drawn element to line up perfectly with a model element because the darn thing won't move in small enough increments. It seems that the only way I can get something that moves fluidly and goes right where I want it is to turn off all snapping and then move a copy of the element.

9. Why can't a Layout element that has been filled with a solid color act as opaque when it is over a linked SU model? I regularly like to bring in a SU model (keeping it linked and unexploded), cover it with a plane that has some amount of transparency, and then place another model over it with a different view (like showing a loft framing plan with a mostly grayed out rest of the model behind it, or topo lines beneath a model). As of now, this is impossible without exploding the lower model, which defeats the purpose of Layout in the first place, which is to have updatable models.

10. I have a heck of time getting all of my model instances to perfectly line up in Layout. In SU, I navigate to an orthographic top view, and, without changing my position at all, save a variety of scenes with the various floor plans, etc. I go into Layout and import the model into page 1, move it around, set scale, etc. so it lines up with my grid lines, copy it, and place the copy on a few other pages. As I cycle through the scenes for each of the new instances, I experience a seemingly random placement of the model in the window. In other words, if I have a model set at 1/4" scale and copy it to a new page, change the scene, which changes the scale to some random something, change the scale back to 1/4", and sometimes, everything lines up perfectly, and sometimes it doesn't. While this is peculiar and not something I have been able to fix, it is annoying that I have to go through and manually place the model window back on the grid, especially since, almost every time, the incremental moves won't allow me to perfectly get everything lined up.

11. Every time I move an element, it seems that it loses it's layer orientation. If I take an element that has been sent to back and move a copy, the copy is always place on the front and I have to again change it to send to back. This is another time waster that adds up over the course of dealing with multiple pages of changes.

12. It would be nice if, when I selected an element, that the active layer would change to that element's layer. How many times have I copied an element on layer 1 and placed it on a new page, only to realize later that I had a different layer active and that element is no longer on the layer that it was originally on.

13. Sometimes updating a model takes twice or three times as long as usual, as if there was a memory suck going on somewhere. I usually have to close Layout and restart a few times a day to keep this under control.

Well, I am sure I have missed a few things, but this should give everyone something to think about. I will post other observations as they come to me, but I think I covered most of what has been keeping me from loving this software. I will continue to use it, as having the SU model updatable is invaluable, but , in my opinion, Layout really needs a lot of fine tuning to be considered "pro" software. Hopefully, Google, gives the development team what they need to continue improving it.

And I really hope that some of the issues I have discussed are actually me not understanding something and that someone here can assist me in improving my workflow.

[bjanzen]

Thanks for some great comments. FYI, we're still taking ideas for the next version of SketchUp & LayOut at https://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=24a7a

1. Are you trying to highlight a SketchUp model or actually draw 2D plans in LayOut? Yes, drawing in LayOut to do 2D plans could be frustrating, but you're supposed to do that in SketchUp, then set dimensions, take offs, highlighting, etc… in LayOut. We have a feature request to draw to a scale, e.g. - my view of my model on the page is 1/4" = 1', so when I draw a line, if I type 4 feet, it should draw a 1 inch line on my paper. Is that what you want?

2. I draw lines to snap to - can't you just draw them, put them on a layer that you can later hide?

3. Save your style. Then update your scene. Then save your model. Styles are associated with scenes, but you can have modified-but-not-saved styles, and modified but not saved scenes. If you want them to show up in LayOut, save them.

4. Not clear on this, but can't you go File->Document Setup->References and Update. You would have to open up old files to make sure it worked. Are you asking that you don't have to open up the back-up files? You can always relink the models (to older versions), so it shouldn't be an issue.

5. This, I believe, was a 2.1 Windows only bug. It's gone on 3.0 on my system.

6. Yup. Frequent request. Sucks. Ask for a feature request to enable the Ruby API and it could happen.

7. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

8. We can't move less than a pixel. Inferencing sometimes requires moving away, then moving back to move a small distance. And see Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

9. This sounds interesting and should work (ala Mitchel). I'll check on this and get back to you.

10. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

11. Correct, a copy is the newest thing created, so it goes on top. I like your request and I'll file it. My only worry is that novice users who don't understand drawing order and layers might get confused: I just copied this thing and why is it hiding behind other things.

12. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

13. Are you vector rendering? Vector rendering re-renders the entire model. We suggest working in low resolution raster until you're ready for final output. If not, respond back, and we'll look at what else it could be.

Thanks for the feedback. If I missed something, please respond back or clarify my misunderstandings.

[otb designworks]

Hi Brad, thank you much for the detailed and personal attention! You know I started this thread primarily because I knew you were paying attention.

I have been in Layout Sketchup world all day today, so I can perhaps clarify some of my earlier remarks.

Please give me the evening to go over all your provided information and I will get back tomorrow with my responses.

Thanks again!

[Krisidious]

I can't wait to be doing all my construction documentation in SketchUp... (waits patiently)

I'd be interested in seeing a sample of your finished drawing...

[otb designworks]

Okay, I have had some time to go over all your comments and here are my responses:

1. No, I am not drawing 2D plans in Layout and yes, I am using SU for all of my drawings. But, for the construction grid, I need dashed lines and control over line weights. I have a grid that I drew in Sketchup that I could just draw over with the new, Layout lines, and this is probably the best way to accomplish what I need. I had tried to draw a grid dashed line, with the number bubbles, as a group that I could move around and snap to the SU grid, but I was having the issues I discussed with grouping and snapping. If I could use Layout to draw a line (at the correct scale) from a SU snap point, then that would save me the time spent drawing a line, attaching a dimension string to it, and then manually scaling the line until the dimension is correct and then using that line end point to snap my grid line to. So long story long, what you described (type in 4' and get 1" line) is exactly what I would like.

2. Yeah, that works, and I do do that frequently, but the SU construction line, where I can hot key to delete all lines at once, and I have a live, snapping parallel line to a model line would be really helpful. Construction lines are such an integral part of my SU workflow that I definitely find myself missing them in SU.

3. Thanks for this! I had neglected to save the scene, in SU, with the proper style. You would think that that would have been an obvious thing for me to check, but sometimes things are only obvious once you know about them. Everything works just like you described.

4. Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe I am still not understanding. Let's say I have the entire Layout document referencing a file called 10, with 30 model instances in the document. As I am working in SU, updating my model over the course of weeks, I now, because I save a version quite often, let's say the final model is now 35. My workflow now, in Layout, requires me to keep file 10 consistent with the latest SU model, which is now file 35 so that everything is up to date. What I would like to do is tell Layout to take all of my file 10 model instances, and replace them with model 35 instances. Of course, both SU models would have the exact same scenes, styles, etc. Maybe other users don't continually save out SU models with new names to keep a timeline of progress, but I do, and it is a pain to get that to work with Layout.

5. I am on a mac, so maybe there is a slight difference there. It seems that if I click outside of an editable object in a group, then it does not close the whole group. But, if I hit escape instead, then it does close the whole group down. To be honest, I have basically scrapped groups as they seem to just add key strokes and clicking to the workflow, with no appreciable benefit since I can keep things separate, and locked with the layers.

6. I respectfully request enabling the Ruby API.

7. Yes, the precise move is an excellent and appreciated addition to Layout, no doubt about it. It would be even better if I could place construction lines to snap to and then delete easily. This keeps me from having to snapping to a SU geometry and then moving the item away to where I want it, using the inference engine to keep it in line. Works, but could be faster. And, as far as precise move goes, why doesn't Layout remember where I placed the rotation point? So now, every time I want to move a model instance, I have to replace the rotation point back to where I needed it. This adds needless zooming out and in when you are working 24x36 pages.

8. So the movement amount comes down to pixel size? But this only applies when moving with the mouse or the arrows? Because, my new trick for placing when not using precise move, is to move the item, and then key in .001 increments until it lines up. If I can move it with inputs, it would be nice to have the arrows have the same increments. I find that, for a 1/4"=1' scale that, if I zoom in to the maximum, I can move an element in 1/16" (scale) increments with my mouse, but it takes a lot of trial and error and a precise hand. I spend too much time trying to get a line to an exact dimension; this would be basically a non issue if I could draw in scale.

9. While the behavior of having the model show through a fill, no matter the arrangement, is almost always the case, every once in a while, for reasons I haven't been able to isolate, the fill will be opaque over the model. Like 1% of the time, maybe. This feature of being able to control a layer opacity to dim out a model view would be very handy.

10. Yes, precise move help immensely with fixing the line up problem, but it would be great if it wasn't a problem. Maybe it would be possible to designate parts of the SU model to always be at a particular position in Layout, for a given scale. Kind of a snap point on steroids.

11. I am really having problems with the arrangement feature. Why are the model instances always on top? I am constantly losing Layout elements behind a model instance. I can see them but I can't select them without either dragging right to left and then deselecting the model instance, or moving the model over a known number of arrow strokes, grabbing the element and moving it, and then moving the model back. Neither of these is very quick and require too many calisthenics, in my opinion. I end up using layers for almost everything, but it still extra key strokes to accomplish something that should be easy. I need to be able to send the model instance to the back and keep it there. I can see the concern about novices, but, frankly, anyone who is using Layout already is a pro SU user and is motivated to get out of the Auto CAD world, so they are not exactly novices.

12. Not sure how precise move helps here. Example: I have a construction grid on layer GRID. I want to copy it to another page. When I select the grid and copy, the active layer does not change to GRID, it stays wherever it was before selection. So, off to the new page and paste. Only, since GRID wasn't automatically made active, and I am not paying attention or working too fast, the pasted grid goes to whatever layer is active. Then, once I realize what happened, I have to select the grid, change my active layer, right click, and move to current layer. That is a whole lot of steps that could be eliminated.

13. Haha, you got me on this one. I am rendering in vector. It's too bad that my beast of a computer (8 3.2 gig processors and 10 gig of ram) has it's hands tied by the lack of multithreading for rendering. If I change the render style to medium or low raster, do I have to change each instance, or is a change to one instance applied globally? I have the render quality set to medium in preferences.

Much thanks again; I highly appreciate your time and energy helping me. I also highly appreciate that Layout is being actively developed and improved.

[otb designworks]

@krisidious said:

I can't wait to be doing all my construction documentation in SketchUp... (waits patiently)

I'd be interested in seeing a sample of your finished drawing...

I'll post up some samples once I get this project off to the engineer. Thanks for the interest!

[bmike]

@krisidious said:

I can't wait to be doing all my construction documentation in SketchUp... (waits patiently)

I'd be interested in seeing a sample of your finished drawing...

Kris -
see here for construction document examples:

http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15911&start=165

[bjanzen]

This is such a big thread that I almost dread tackling only parts of it. If it's OK, I'm going to break out some of the ideas to make it a bit more manageable. I'll preface them with

"OTB Idea #1 - Drawing in paper space isn't intuitive", etc...

Sound OK?

b

[otb designworks]

Sounds good to me, thanks Barry!

[minimalex]

Thanks for posting and answering. I second most of the points, and would like to add a request for a usable spell check. Perhaps it's a bug, but "check whole document" appears to mean "don't check whole document". If I had known that I could have saved some embarrassment. I am not a great speller and I need those red underlines to show up in a timely logical manor.

[Lê Việt Trường]

@krisidious said:

I can't wait to be doing all my construction documentation in SketchUp... (waits patiently)

I'd be interested in seeing a sample of your finished drawing...

Take a look to some of my works here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.848002471945493.1073741826.813772245368516%26amp;type=3
and here: