1918 Spanish Flu resurrected?
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Yeah Tomasz, this is what was mentioned on the TV a couple of nights ago. Heck I have no problem with the jab if it softens the effects of this flu.
EA, hope your wife gets better soon. Give her our kiond regards and tell her that we will try and encourage Cornell to say a few prayers for her quick recovery, should work as he appears to be well connected
Mike
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To go back a step or two...
'God' [supposedly] gave 'us' [mankind] something called 'free-will' that lets us make whatever mess of things that we can dream up...
That's the whole idea of 'free-will' - we each make our choices, so it's our fault individually and jointly when it's not as good as it might have been...
If God intervenes then isn't that a total disregard for this 'first rule' ?... If God either helps us [e.g. you pray and something is changed (if you are 'chosen' or not if you are 'tested')]... or God hinders us [e.g. sends a plague or a disaster (again the chosen ones might be spared or 'tested')]... then it's clearly an unfair advantage or trick that we shouldn't tolerate...
God is good. Few would argue with that ?
If God set this whole thing running, with 'free-will' etc, then we might suppose that that's should be good too...
The whole idea of 'free-will' is that's it's 'free'... God shouldn't interfere once it's been set running...God stepping in at any point is really an unacceptable interference with our 'given' right to mess up as we see fit, in accordance with our own (perhaps incredibly stupid) ideas...
At the very 'end' when God judges you, that's perhaps a different matter - if you haven't make a good fist of what you were given then that's potentially your problem...
However, [in closing] this also seems a bit unfair - God is 'all knowing' [that's a given], God decided to give us 'free-will' in the first place [we didn't ask for it], God must have known the ultimate outcome of that decision [or at least that it could be catastrophic - given that he 'designed' us and our internal mental processing, now proven to be predisposed to being at least 'difficult' in its results ! ]...
So... now, at the very 'end', when [rather than 'if' (since it seems to be part of our 'design')] we have messed-up we seem to get 'punished' [various methods are mooted]... when the guy who initially set all of this up and then in motion [i.e. God] gets off 'free as a bird' - he's sad about it but it's us who suffer...
Somehow, perversely it's our fault, not God's, when it's been God's whole idea that turns out to be rubbish ??????
Nature v Nurture... same difference...
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Here we go again....
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Even 'atheists' would accept that 'believers' think of [their] God as being 'good'... Even if they don't accept God exists... if God did exist God would be 'good'... it's a self-fulfilling definition - you are unlikely to be worshipping someone who's 'bad' - after all, even 'Satanists' think that 'right is on their side' - albeit against the general 'trend' ??? ...
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@tig said:
Even 'atheists' would accept that 'believers' think of [their] God as being 'good'
Possibly, but that's not what you said initially. You said 'God is good', not 'believers think God is good'. Big difference.
@tig said:
... Even if they don't accept God exists... if God did exist God would be 'good'... it's a self-fulfilling definition - you are unlikely to be worshipping someone who's 'bad' - after all, even 'Satanists' think that 'right is on their side' - albeit against the general 'trend' ??? ...
I think you're quite wrong here. At best, atheists would call God indifferent. As for not worshipping someone's who's bad ... history proves you wrong. Hitler, Mao, Stalin ... it's a pretty long list.
Furthermore, many atheists would argue God - the concept - is indeed 'bad'. I'd even call that the main reason for them being atheists.
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You miss the whole point... there was a '?' at the end of that sentence and a few '' about - please try to 'read-between-the-lines' ...
BUT, it is a tenet of virtually all religions that their God/belief is 'good'. Even atheists believe and argue on the basis of what they believe* is 'good' in the sense of being right [or perhaps better expressed as 'correct' - to avoid a 'right/wrong' semantic argument here...] - it's hard to find anyone arguing that their ideas are the 'best' and are not actually 'good', let alone that they are neutral or evil... [ *Atheists have a belief - even if it's to believe there is no God - an easily arguable position to take, as is 'theism' itself !!! ]
To counter bits of one of your arguments...
Only history [and that is almost always written by the victors] purports to show who is/was good and who is/was bad... I don't even believe that 'Hitler' did anything that he thought at the time was outright 'bad' [as he saw it 'on balance'*] - he acted in what he saw to be the best interest of the himself, his cronies, his party, the German people, western-civilisation and the world in general... *The misery of the few outweighs the misery of the many... *The ends justify the means... etc etc... NOT that I agree with any of what was done by him and his gang... However, to think that anyone who is sane deliberately does bad-things for bad-reasons is naive [and Hitler certainty was sane-enough to control a major political/economic/military power for several years and managed to curry favour with many]... Sane people often do [what turn out to be seen as] bad-things, but not for bad-reasons - they do them for what they perceive to be very good-reasons... Sometimes they do [what we can now easily see to be] unbelievably wicked things: things that it would be hard to invent a good reason to do at any time/for any reason [.../TheCrusades/ThePogroms/WWI/WWII/Belsen/Vietnam/TheKillingFields/Srebrenitsa/WarsForOil/EatingMacDonaldsEveryDay/ etc]... but when quizzed, they will all have done these things with the very best of intentions - seen from their [now obviously] flawed perspectives... After all, 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions'... even if you are/were an atheist you can get/got it wrong!!!!
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@mike lucey said:
Yeah Tomasz, this is what was mentioned on the TV a couple of nights ago. Heck I have no problem with the jab if it softens the effects of this flu.
EA, hope your wife gets better soon. Give her our kiond regards and tell her that we will try and encourage Cornell to say a few prayers for her quick recovery, should work as he appears to be well connected
Mike
It'd be nice if we could get our acts together here in the US to ensure some really basic preventative health care, like immunizations, are free. It'd save businesses and people lots of time and money by not being sick or potentially seriously sick. I guess we like to gamble on good health here rather than have to pay a dime of extra tax.
Thanks for the good wishes Mike, prayers are every bit as good!
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Re. prayers:
I did prove many times this verse:
“Stay joined to Me and let My teachings become part of you. Then you can pray for whatever you want, and your prayer will be answered.” (John 15:7)…, and I received prompt and true answers. You can try it!
“Ask, and you will receive! Search, and you will find! Knock, and the door will be opened for you!” (Matthew 7:7)Cornel
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@unknownuser said:
"Ask, and you will receive! Search, and you will find! Knock, and the door will be opened for you!"
This could be cool for our Newbie Forum "slogan", too (currently):
@unknownuser said:
"Welcome! Ask and get answered - or just introduce yourself."
A good one; I'll think about it. Especially referring to the Search box as a very handy means of collecting info for a newbie is appealing. -
Wow what a thread! What else can we pull into it? Recipes anyone?
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@tig said:
Only history [and that is almost always written by the victors] purports to show who is/was good and who is/was bad... I don't even believe that 'Hitler' did anything that he thought at the time was outright 'bad' [as he saw it 'on balance'*] - he acted in what he saw to be the best interest of the himself, his cronies, his party, the German people, western-civilisation and the world in general... *The misery of the few outweighs the misery of the many... *The ends justify the means... etc etc... NOT that I agree with any of what was done by him and his gang..
TIG This sort of reductionist philosophy is based on an investigation of the "good" that most philosophical courses cover at some time or another. At some point it is queried whether one person's "good" is equal to any other. To go no further is a shame. Profound disappointments withstanding, I think you do human intelligence or the human "spirit" a disservice, if you are asserting that all the wisdom we are capable of gaining from history is based on who was the last winner.
But I am sure you mean more than that?Peter
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Peter
Of course I do...
It's debate time... -
@unknownuser said:
TIG: it's hard to find anyone arguing that their ideas are the 'best' and are not actually 'good', let alone that they are neutral or evil...
Do you mean " it's hard to find anyone arguing that their ideas are NOTthe 'best'"?
I take this part of your statements to be self evident. But I do not think our judgment of history or experience need be controlled by the "victor's" pronouncements. Not to assume that (in your example) if the Nazis won, the world would naturally be thinking "Oh, that Third Reich stuff was not so bad, and anyway it was necessary." Certainly this is an opinion from the quiet confines of my couch and not in some Orwellian dudgeon, if you take my meaning, where any free thought is suppressed.
And I know the response to that: "What is free thought?" For that matter what is "belief" for one raised in the church from a baby? This doesn't take us anywhere.
@unknownuser said:
For myself I fully and conscientiously believe, that it is the will of the Almighty, that there be a diversity of religious opinions among us: It affords a larger field for our Christian kindness.
Thomas Paine, Common SenseThere's one who "believes" you can believe differently. Not pure logic, and a quaint conclusion (what about non-Christians), but pretty liberal for the times.
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@pbacot said:
Wow what a thread! What else can we pull into it? Recipes anyone?
Well, I know how to make Ecuadorian "chifles". You basically need a green variety of bananas called "verdes" here and "plantains" everywhere else.
Just slice them into thick discs, fry them in oil and salt, and serve with cheese and butter or anything else you fancy. Some people smash them after frying them, thus becoming "patacones". Enjoy.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=patacones&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g5g-s3g2
BTW, Dada artists would be proud of this thread.
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Thanks for the recipe. Anything fried with cheese and butter must be good. We get those bananas here (in the US).
In Hawaii we had another cooking banana. They were yellow when ripe, but fat with a pinkish flesh. Starchy if not cooked, but steamed, makes a sweet and tangy bright yellow mass with a hearty consistency that becomes more solid as it cools. Serve hot with butter for breakfast or put in a cool pie with cinnamon. Do you have those? We only called them cooking bananas, sorry. I think they were Polynesian in origin.
DADA is as DADA does.
Peter
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Yeah, I think we're talking the same thing. When "verdes" (green) become ripe they are called "maduros" (meaning "ripe") and are cooked as you described. Yes, we give this fruit the most obvious names
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