SCF Toolbars Series
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Hi All,
I feel the SCF work I shared with you recently, has cast me in a light I don't want to be under, so I’d like to use a little free time I have today, to clarify a couple of points and express my views (and honest sorry to whoever feels I should have apologised) - with regard to the SCF Toolbars.
The users' feedback from my previous toolbars has been very good. In fact, I suspect the 'commercial' attempt we witnessed few weeks ago was probably inspired by it. I also feel there has been perhaps some dislike/opposition in some quarters. If so, allow me to say I feel this is not needed.
Though I was not the first, I somehow hit upon a good idea in its implementation and design... and am very glad I found a way to positively contribute to the 'generosity pool' I shared for a long time - especially since my programming skills are very limited and I felt somewhat 'in debt' to the community.
Over the years since ruby became a resource, many have issued scripts based upon other people's work - with or without prior consent; acknowledgement and gratitude in this 'free' undertaking going without saying, of course..
So while some have had reservations, I would like to make clear that..
- A lot of real time and work has gone into creating the toolbars and their graphics.
- Due authorship and credit has always been given in the toolbars and in the video tutorials.
- Great exposure for the tools and their authors has been achieved (and not just me).
- Naming the work 'SCF Toolbars' leaves no doubt of my intentions, thought and philosophy behind it.
- a lot of work has gone into producing the video tutorials to accompany the tools.
- All this work has been shared for free - just like all the other we receive.
- Many more people are enjoying the tools and are learning how to use them through this work.
When I first wrote the SCF Archiland and SCF Powertoolbar, I did so without prior consent of the ruby masters. Certainly it would have been better if I did (and I will do so in the future). Still I hope it was understood that my work has always been transparent and clear - in keeping with the 'Sketchup spirit' that has been the soul of this community, and always characterised by great respect due to its builders.
I hope this has not been too long – thanks for reading.
Your truly
Max Coppoletta
(CadFather) -
Hi Max - I've always respected your intentions and I think the vast majority of us who've come across your work do as well. You deserve to be proud of your efforts. They've been of service to our community of SU users.
Regards, Ross
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Dear Max,
I think the only thing that happened to upset people was your accidental inclusion of a pay-to-use script. if that hadn't happened then I think your efforts would have been welcomed with loud applause. I for one find your toolbars useful.
Kind regards,
Bob -
Max, your efforts have always been lauded here. I very much appreciate what you've done. I'm sure all will get worked out just fine.
Peace and out,
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@cadfather said:
When I first wrote the SCF Archiland and SCF Powertoolbar, I did so without prior consent of the ruby masters. Certainly it would have been better if I did (and I will do so in the future). Still I hope it was understood that my work has always been transparent and clear - in keeping with the 'Sketchup spirit' that has been the soul of this community, and always characterised by great respect due to its builders.
Max Coppoletta
(CadFather)max,
since i was one of the most active members in the reaction against the attempt to sell free plugins as part of a toolbar, i must say it never occurred to me you had embarked on a similar endeavor. i have always seen your work as a most welcome contribution to this community. the fact that no script author complained openly about it is probably a sign that they did not feel bad about having their scripts included in your toolbars (although it would not hurt you or them if you got their permission from now on, in view of what happened a few weeks ago).
please carry on with your contributions.
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Hi again and thanks for the replies.. : )
i am going to post a new topic asking the masters whether they would mind me posting more toolbars (i have 2 new ones). Edson, perhaps you could make it a sticky for a while..?
Cheers
Max -
i surely could, but first let me get one thing clear: would you want me to make this topic a sticky or the one you are about to post?
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the new post - http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=16792#p132956
at least until wishes are known.. Thanks Edson.
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Max, sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this topic yet. I think your putting together toolbars is a great idea - I see people are interested in this. I'll get back to you soon.
Todd
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What he said
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Max, the world of Ruby scripts is pretty much like a card collecting game: The task of searching all over the place to find them and then keeping track of them in an ever-increasing "Plugins" menu can be overwhelming to a newcomer like me. If it were not for your PowerToolbar and your Archiland Toolbar, I would have never become aware that Didier Bur had written so many useful scripts for terrain manipulation, that TIG had a roof-making script, ot that Octavian Chis had done a Pathcopy script. These scripts have proven invaluable for my recent work, and they would have remained obscure for me, figuratively buried in lists and between threads, if not for your work of "digging" them. I, for one, could never find the Free Form Deformator script by Philips, no matter how much I searched the Plugins forum, so it was cool to see it included in the PowerToolbar. It was only when I followed a link in and old issue of CatchUp that I could finally locate the original FFD thread. And I consider myself to be a good "searcher". Condensing these jewels in toolbars brings them closer to newcomers, to students, to everyday professionals, and makes your Plugin menu less cluttered.
There's a big difference between written, inflexible policies and actual interactions between companies and individuals. Have you read "Terrie's take"? It's a free weekly newsletter written by an American in Japan. He includes snippets and commentary from several news sources. I once asked him how he managed to get permission to reproduce these stories from such important sources. It sure must have been a lot of paperwork to get a written agreement from the Asahi newspaper, for example... Well, he answered that he did try to get actual legal permission to do so, but both parties (he and the news sources) found out that it was too difficult to do(you know lawyers), so he instead had "Gentlemen's agreement" between his sources and himself: He didn't just copy and pasted parts of stories, but he instead paraphrased them for his readers, added a few comments and provided links to the original sources. So the result was a big win-win: He got content for his free newsletter, and his sources would get new subscribers. That's the spirit behind most of Google endeavours, too: To "dig" information and make it available to people. And when one of Google's services by chance indexes paid content and they receive a notice, they simply drop that content. That's it. Such ocassional gaffes were not, and will never be, the end of Google.
So thank you, Max, and thank you, Ruby writers.
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Thanks for that - i didn't know and 'gentlemen's agreement' sounds just right to how i see it. i hope more writers will join in and allow the toolbars to carry on.. we'll see..
Cheers
Max -
(NOTE: This whole post is purely my sole opinion. I have not talked to anyone but the voices in my head about what I say here, its just me thinking out loud.)
In publishing, there is something (at least in the US system) called fair use. Meaning that you are completely legally allowed to copy bits and pieces to share with other people. This is put in place for things like critiqueing and reviewing other peoples work. That dude seems to be doing it right, posting bits and pieces, giving full credit and links to the article. He's critiqueing what he finds interesting in the story, then also providing the link for people to get the full details. So its considered fair use.
You might not be able to get away with it so easily with the scripts. Especially scripts that are licensed to the user to not distribute in any way shape or form. For example, Smustards End User License Agreement states:
@unknownuser said:
You may not alter, publish, market, distribute, give, transfer, sell or sublicense the Scripts or any part of the Scripts
Obviously "selling or sublicensing" isn't the issue here. Its the "alter, publish, distribute" portion. Its clear that they want to retain complete control of how their scripts are distributed. And rightfully so, because they run a business where its beneficial to them to have people actually go to their site to download the free scripts. Cause while we're there, we're tempted by the other great priced scripts and its easy to buy one or two. But this wouldn't happen if they licensed their scripts so that anyone could publish them whereever.
But, there are other scripts out there that say stuff like "You may use, copy, distribute, modify this script as long as the Author is given credit for his/her original work", I think those scripts are complete fair game w/o the author's concent, because she/he has essentially given it in the copyright notice of the script (though I would guess most authors would at least like to know that someone has incorporated thier script into something like a toolbar, it might make them happy (and if it makes them mad, then they should not have licensed their script so freely)).
So I keep thinking how would it be possible to make and distribute the toolbars in such a way that CadFather gets credit for his work and publicity for his site. And all script authors also get the same. And it doesn't turn into a big mucky mess of "Download the toolbar script at this site, then download these 3 scripts from this site, then this script from this site, and another script from here and here and then do the hokey pokey and turn yourself around."
Huh, well I'm sure I've over complexificated a simple issue. Its what I'm good at,
Chris
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And for the record, since I tihnk it wasn't clear. I am ALL in favor of the toolbars continuing. And if I ever write a script that you want to use, you have my permission already.
Chris
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..well put Chris and thanks for the thumbs' up.. i might ask you to write my scf toolbar eula one day..
to finish off the apology, of course people did not have to go to my site to download the toolbar (i posted it here first and my link is quite hidden in my signature). to be sure, i point to video tutorials for which you go to my website (or youtube) and in the videos i show a small company logo.. but one never hears of cadfather as being the creator of the scripts (or even of the toolbar or the icons), and the focus is on the author's names and the use of their plugin for the benefit of all sketchup - it was always about sharing as i received..cheers
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Ok, reading Chris Fullmer's explanation of the spirit behind Smustard's EULA, an idea came to me... Move all SCF Toolbars outta here, host them in Smustard and leave just a link to the specific Smustard page here. I'm sure they would welcome them in their site, as it would drive tons of visitors to their paid scripts, too.
Just an idea, please excuse my ignorance on these matters...
Smustard's EULA for free scripts reminds me of the Kerkythea license: It says you can distribute it personally, but not massively (on a website or a magazine CD, for example). Kerky is "copyrighted freeware", which I guess means you can use it without charge, but it's not open-source and you can't create your own "distribution" of it as if it were Linux. But of course the Kerkythea site welcomes user-created content, and actually has a "file repository" for it. That repository contains, among other things, free models adapted for Kerky from other sources. Perhaps Smustard could follow a similar line and make a place for SCF's Toolbars.
Again, just an idea... I'm an Iguana, not a lawyer.
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That ides keeps popping up in my mind too. But then what about all the other authors who do not host through smustard? There are a lot of them.
I think I like the idea of hosting them here, with all the plugins included in the zip file (with all appropriate permissions, etc) with links to the "official" home to each plugin included in the thread. So there could be a link to each smustard script included, to each of Didier's scripts, to TBD's, to Jim's blog, to the thread on this forum where the script is maintained, etc, and a link to Cadfather's page if he'd like (and I think he deserves the publicity for taking the time to do it, and do it well).
That way perhaps its easier to track each script and make sure the toolbar is using current versions of each script too. And it can be the SCF toolbar, as a collaboration with the SCF (as its hosted here), Cadfather (since he maintains it and hosts a version on his website) and all authors who frequent here. Is that overkill? And I think that satisfies everything in my mind - a single place to download and install a single package, with quick links to all separate scripts.
Chris
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