Do humans have a free will?
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@unknownuser said:
..."Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad….”...Cornel
This explains a lot! :`)
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@solo said:
...I too am athiest...
I make choices based on my values and morals and I accept the consequences of those decisions, this gives me the conclusion that I have free will.Pete, as an Athiest where do you get your values and morals? Curious.
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Eric, good question.
I believe in man, I honestly live with a belief that the majority of people are good with good intentions.
I was brought up to trust people until they prove untrustworthy, respect people unless they show disrespect and obey the laws of the land.
I try to help when and how I can and not because I am told to or required to, I treat people the way I hope they would recipricate, I try and teach my kids honor and character based on the way I live my life and not by a set of biblical rules.I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue, and not for a reward of everlasting life in heaven.
I do not believe christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, actually based on what I have seen religion is responsible for more hatred and death, not forgetting deceit, pedophillia, martyrdom and greed to be even closely associated with good morals and honest values.
Atheists have nothing to fall back on. We are on our own and it is necessary for us to find a moral life. We have to be objective and rational. Mysticism won't work and we know it. Atheists have something no religious person can enjoy and that is the certainty that our moral decisions are based upon a knowledge founded in reality and not faith in some unprovable, murky mystic awareness. Faith is belief without knowledge.
okay lets lighten this up a bit ....
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Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.
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Stinkie,
You didn’t follow my advice to see Bible contexts of terms such “nonspiritual man” or “a beastly man”…! Using a ‘search machine’ or a ‘concordance’, you can find many instances of them and you will be elucidated!Susan,
I’m not fanatic, masochist, machiavellist, ‘under burden’, “dour and sad”, etc. and I have more than enough fun, but I cannot aford to alterate God’s Word.
For example I cannot name a sin as: a mistake, a defect, an imperfection, an inconvenient, etc. Why?!:
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)Tomsdesk,
I’m wondering if “This explains a lot!”, because, at first, we have to clarify Jesus Christ included expression: “on my account”.Pete & Ron,
Faith is a belief with proof. (…not subtle…). Just an example:
“… and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” (Malachi 3:10)Cornel
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Mike,
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My Bible is The Word of God, I'm sure about that, because:
“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
...and because:
“…the word of the Lord remains forever.” (1 Peter 1:25)
... and because It's true (John 17:17) -
Re. your questions:
“Do animals have free will?.... Are we not animals also?”
No, we aren’t…
Not only the bestiality is a separative criterion…!Cornel
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Cornel,
Just curious! Do you have any interest in SketchUp. Do you use
it at work? I'd like to hear a little about you and what you do,
work, fun, family etc.Mike
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Mike, I was thinking the same thing. Cornel has selected the SketchUp Forum to participate in but, given the subjects he chooses, he could be on any forum.
Why the SketchUp Forum Cornel? Do you use it in your work at all? Why is religion the only topic you ever discuss here? If it is the SketchUp Forum that is important to you, surely you want to contribute to SketchUp knowledge, or perhaps ask SketchUp related questions.
It's time to learn something more about you. -
You sound very accomplished. It is enough for now, but we will want to know more and we will want to know your opinion on things technical as well. It's so nice to have to write about yourself and something a little different for a change.
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Very Impressive Cornel.
I found a fitting quote.
"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." 1 Corinthians 13 vs 9-11
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Now, now Pete ..... it must be catching
Thats a lot of knowledge there Cornel. I'd love to have a couple
of languages, Spanish and maybe French. Oh! I am reasonably
proficient in Gaelic. What languages do you actually speak? -
@unknownuser said:
Stinkie,
You didn’t follow my advice to see Bible contexts of terms such “nonspiritual man” or “a beastly man”…! Using a ‘search machine’ or a ‘concordance’, you can find many instances of them and you will be elucidated!Am I to take it that the Bible defines 'beastly' in another way than Webster's does, and if so, how precisely?
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@bellwells said:
Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.
Ron, any knowledge thats worth two cents can be PROVED! Otherwise its speculation at best, hocus pocus at worst. Do you really think people should lay down their life for speculation? Where is the morality of that? There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite. To use a Deleuzian term, they have the same 'engineering diagram'.
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Susan,
I’m w/ SU forum since SU v.3 and I was involved inclusive in “tehnicals”, (especialy
in former forum), but now, there are a lot of specialists, dedicated and prompt, willing to share their experience. My time is very limited (projects, consulting, library, grand children, etc.)Stinkie,
To be “preciselly’, start w/ those:
Romans 7:5, 7:18-25, 8:3, 8:20, 13:4,
1 Corinthians 2:14, 15:44-46; 2 Corinthians 10:2-3, 11:8
Galatians 3:3, 5:13-17, 5:24, 6:8
Colossians 2:13, etc.
It’s easy to use ‘Bible online’ because you can switch to different Bible versions (or diff. languages), or change passages. Very helpful also is the keyword search machine…Cornel
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Mike & Susan,
I’m giving you only my partial ‘skeleton’... I have no time for details or stories.
(I don’t know how curious are you...and, besides that, I’m an old ‘collectionist’...)I lived in different kind of countries (Popular/Republic, Socialist/Communist, Capitalist/Imperialist) and continents.
I know several languages, English is the fifth.I have two masters (Architecture and Urban Planning), several related majors (Interior Design/Decorations, Interior Architect & Industrial Design) plus two majors in Fine Arts (Picture & Sculpture). I worked also, temporary, or part time in paralel w/ main activity, in many other total different ‘fields’.
Programs:
CAD: I’m expert in Cadvance, DataCad, Architectural Desktop, proficient in Vectorworks, Archicad, familiar w/ Revit, Allplan, Solidworks, Rhino, etc.
Modeling/Rendering: SketchUp, 3D Studio Max, Accurender, Artlantis , Piranesi., etc
Photo editind & painting: Graphic Suites of Adobe and Corel, Paint 3D, etc
Miscellaneous: tens of other important programs and utilities.Sports: Soccer, Martial Arts, Acrobatics, Alpinism, Deltaplane etc.
Is this list enough for this ‘sesion’?
"Just curious!" (my turn..)Cornel
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Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes was a good listen, thanks for
the link. I'd forgotten about TED, some really great talks there and
well worth staying up to date with what's going on
Also watched Al Seckel: Your brain is badly wired -- enjoy it!
He makes some good points on how its not possible for many people
to 'see' what are looking at. Crazy Nuts is a good case in point. -
I thought this topic doesn't have to relate again to religion, but as it has been mentioned already few times, I want to share with you some of my thoughts.
@solo said:
I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue, and not for a reward of everlasting life in heaven.
This a very common misinterpretation of the Christianity. There is NOTHING a Christian can do get to heaven. It works in an opposite way. I will get to heaven because I believe in love and also 'I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue' not in order to get there but from pure thankfulness I have discovered a path of love. We are not that different, Pete.
@solo said:
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, actually based on what I have seen religion is responsible for more hatred and death, not forgetting deceit, paedophilia, martyrdom and greed to be even closely associated with good morals and honest values.
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, neither. You are right. When I think of all crusades, all fights amongst Italian families to put their member as a pope I see how far can idea of a Kingdom can be warped, lost and used for completely different purposes.
@solo said:
Atheists have nothing to fall back on. We are on our own and it is necessary for us to find a moral life. We have to be objective and rational. Mysticism won't work and we know it. Atheists have something no religious person can enjoy and that is the certainty that our moral decisions are based upon a knowledge founded in reality and not faith in some unprovable, murky mystic awareness. Faith is belief without knowledge.
Mysticism it is a window through you can see what is outside. It doesn't mean that a mystic is someone irrational and non-objective. Such a person has just deeper knowledge of what you don't want or don't care to accept as a truth.
Pure Christianity wouldn't deprive you of knowledge founded in reality. It would just enhance your scope of awareness. It is an invitation to a wedding party organized by someone who has brought all our reality to an existence. Many say - I do not care. I have a work to do. I have to visit my relatives. Let other go. I won't.
@chango70 said:
There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite.
Chango, thank you for the link. It was really inspiring to listen to this man. Your problem is that you just hear what you want to hear, not what he said.
He was relating to ideas that are being misused or abused. This the reason why they can be dangerous and work like parasites. Listen to it once again. He is not talking about religions in general, but those misinterpretations that are toxic.
Tomasz
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@unknownuser said:
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.”
It is not much related to the topic of the thread, but I like this part very much, as it describes what I have mentioned in other thread. There will be no 'half truths', there will be no excuse. We will see everything as is, not as we imagine it is. Mystic can have a better insight into this future state, but it doesn't have to be full. It will be still partial.
As I have written, and will write again: Love will never do an attempt to brake your will. One can just open a door and let her flow. She will not come uninvited. It just invites You to take part in her flow.
@unknownuser said:
What is the force that binds the stars
I wore this mask to hide my scars
What is the power that pulls the tide
I never could find a place to hideWhat moves the Earth around the sun
What could I do but run and run and run
Afraid to love, afraid to fail
A mast without a sailThe moon's a fingernail and slowly sinking
Another day begins and now I'm thinking
That this indifference was my invention
When everything I did sought your attentionYou were my compass star
You were my measure
You were a pirate's map
A buried treasureIf this was all correct
The last thing I'd expect
The prosecution rests
It's time that I confess: I must have loved you -
Pete,
that passage:
"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."
…sounds interesting, bat the meaning is different..; being out of context, appears to be alterated!Pretinse text of 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 is (in one Bible version):
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.”More precisely, which is in partwill be done away.
Besides that, "perfection" isn't identical w/ "perfect"...!Cornel
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Ah, Sting. If there was ever a mystic who could look into the future, it's him. I'm deeply sorry, but I find it progressivily harder to take some of the, err, contributions to this thread seriously. I cannot be the only one.
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