I Believe (to address the complaints of last week)
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bellwells expressed a view about "Islamists", NOT Muslims, and his views are probably shared by many Muslims. From what I see I don't care for "Islamists" either (nor theocratic fundamentalist Christians). These are "isms" out to get the rest of us. Islamists are the Taleban and Al Qaeda, Wahabis and the like. People who murder innocents for their "cause", oppress women, deny education to girls, and lock boys up in rooms to recite mumbo-jumbo all day. Sorry, don't like it.
I think bellwells trust of fundamentalist Christians is misplaced though. They are behind the policies abusing people around the world, giving strength to the Islamists and tearing down the USA. Bush et al work on their behalf and have succeeded in bringing the USA military and economic strength so low, we could soon be looking at the end of the American Phenomenon (in manifestation, if not spirit).
Plot, I have always felt on the side of the native Americans and lamented the waste of native cultures and nations worldwide, the horrible genocide. These slave-owner "founding fathers" were far from perfect. Still you won't find anything like the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights before that time. This set the stage for all people, including conquered indigenous nations to fight for their rights, opened the way for Mahatma Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, the real saints of our times. I don't know how it came this way. Certainly it was not the "founding fathers'" intent for blacks and women to vote. I guess I believe in the principles that were given a "beginning" in the founding of the United States and the French Revolution; these principles were picked up by people and improved upon. Say what you like, the rest of the World has looked to this as THE hope and THE way ever since, despite oppression from Nazis, Communists, Wahabists, and even the United States Government itself.
Secular and rational rule of law, and equality. SOME form of representation (at least until the Supreme Court took away our vote). Personal freedom, inalienable rights,... Science, even. All these things have been thwarted all along in this very country-- but this is the core that persists and tries to come to the surface. People will continue to be imperfect, even evil. And even the people who have seized power in the United States will work to tear it down.
Sorry for the long post. It isn't all black and white.
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Hi,
Ron belongs to that one minority that uniquely everyone is free to abuse and insult.
Old white men. (Sorry about the "old", Ron).Also, not having politically correct liberal/left-wing views makes him fair game for a few more dismissive insults. (Racist, bigot, etc, etc).
His only "crime" was to indicate that he has no time for Islamists and does not want to see the spread and acceptance of that ideology as an "alternative" lifestyle. When he dares to express this view, he is lambasted with lecturing responses informing him of how evil Christianity is/has been. He is even accused of being likely to plant burning crosses in the gardens of those he disagrees with! This is so ironic. Reading the opposing points of view who regard themselves as tolerant, understanding and obviously of an intellectual superiority, you can almost sense them fighting to suppress their desire to gather a lynch mob to deal with this heretic.
As an atheist, I have no interest in defending any religion but to compare the two in today’s political climate is absurd.
I have a few Muslim acquaintances and most have expressed their distaste, in general, for the decadent West.
Most also felt that 9/11 was something America had coming to them as payback. I have tried pointing out to them the contradiction of their choice to live and work in the West whilst holding these views. That’s another story!Whatever the rights and wrongs of the past, the fact remains that there is an on-going struggle for how we want the world to be. Islamists have a very clear view of how they want it to be. It is not a world I want.
To finish, it was also suggested that these people are only a tiny minority and that the vast majority simply want a normal life, like the rest of us. Those who express this view do not seem to understand that this is not some sort of life choice. This is a political and religious ideology that insists that the infidel be converted or killed. Ask any Hindu or Sikh as to whether they have been allowed to live side by side in peace.
Also, that tiny minority is not quite that tiny:
@unknownuser said:
A BBC World Service poll about attitudes to al-Qaeda has found that a majority of Egyptians have a positive or mixed view of the Islamist militant network. When asked "overall would you say your feelings about al-Qaeda are positive, negative or mixed", some 60 per cent of Egyptians said they had either a positive or mixed view. Osama Bin Laden's organisation has a number of Egyptians in its top ranks, analysts said.
Meanwhile in Pakistan, where much of the battle against al-Qaeda is being fought, just 19 per cent said they had a negative view of al-Qaeda.
Regards
Mr S -
@mr s said:
Ron belongs to that one minority that uniquely everyone is free to abuse and insult.
Old white men. (Sorry about the "old", Ron).Personally ive tried very hard not to insult anyone, even if i dont agree with them.
@unknownuser said:
His only "crime" was to indicate that he has no time for Islamists and does not want to see the spread and acceptance of that ideology as an "alternative" lifestyle. When he dares to express this view, he is lambasted with lecturing responses informing him of how evil Christianity is/has been. He is even accused of being likely to plant burning crosses in the gardens of those he disagrees with! This is so ironic. Reading the opposing points of view who regard themselves as tolerant, understanding and obviously of an intellectual superiority, you can almost sense them fighting to suppress their desire to gather a lynch mob to deal with this heretic.
The point i am trying to make is that you cant just dismiss islam because a proportion of them are evil bastards. I find it extremely irritating that in this supposedly enlightened age people can go around saying how much they hate a religious group/race when they havent even spoken to them! Its ludicrous! is it acceptable for me to say "Christianity shouldnt be allowed to work in schools, they just indoctrinate our children with religious slander." Of course not, because its not true, there are probably a few people that do that, but it doesnt mean you can say that about every christian.
@unknownuser said:
I have a few Muslim acquaintances and most have expressed their distaste, in general, for the decadent West.
Most also felt that 9/11 was something America had coming to them as payback. I have tried pointing out to them the contradiction of their choice to live and work in the West whilst holding these views. That’s another story!Are they not allowed to hold these views? I also have quite a distaste for the current state of the west, but i dont think it makes me a worse person for it. Its also very possible to live and work here while holding these views. Just because i dont like our general attitude to living it doesnt mean i cant enjoy things lower down the scale, like having good friends and living a comfortable life. Even if it is steeped in hypocrisy
@unknownuser said:
To finish, it was also suggested that these people are only a tiny minority and that the vast majority simply want a normal life, like the rest of us. Those who express this view do not seem to understand that this is not some sort of life choice. This is a political and religious ideology that insists that the infidel be converted or killed. Ask any Hindu or Sikh as to whether they have been allowed to live side by side in peace.
Also, that tiny minority is not quite that tiny:
@unknownuser said:
A BBC World Service poll about attitudes to al-Qaeda has found that a majority of Egyptians have a positive or mixed view of the Islamist militant network. When asked "overall would you say your feelings about al-Qaeda are positive, negative or mixed", some 60 per cent of Egyptians said they had either a positive or mixed view. Osama Bin Laden's organisation has a number of Egyptians in its top ranks, analysts said.
Meanwhile in Pakistan, where much of the battle against al-Qaeda is being fought, just 19 per cent said they had a negative view of al-Qaeda.
More shoe horning an entire religious group in to one category. And i notice only a few middle eastern countries are included, hardly representative of the muslim population.
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@bellwells said:
My WW2 Vet Father does not like the Japs, for example. And for good reason. My opinion of Islamists is also far from uninformed or uneducated. I think you're all wrapped in some sort of nuanced enlightened political correctness. It's OK to despise, really.
It is not OK to despise, bellwells.
It is wrong.
If you do, you become unable to keep learning.
And to learn is what is all about.We have to learn, we must. We are all here. And no_one wants to be destroyed. How can you imagine any other thing ? or think you have the right and non the others ?
Cant you see the despise is an end_way leading to nowhere but war ? -
@paris said:
@bellwells said:
Tell me where you're from, Paris, and I'll be glad to dig up some dirt on your cultural history.
I would be pleased to tell you where I am from, however, now that I know where you are coming from I would be concerned that you would burn a cross on my lawn or poison my dog. I think this subject has come to a conclusion for me and so I bid you all adieu.
Clever. Somehow, I think I'd need a ship or plane to get to your Euro trash flat. I wouldn't dream of poisoning your dog, but.....
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Mr S, I appreciate your comments. Thanks.
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@juanv.soler said:
@bellwells said:
My WW2 Vet Father does not like the Japs, for example. And for good reason. My opinion of Islamists is also far from uninformed or uneducated. I think you're all wrapped in some sort of nuanced enlightened political correctness. It's OK to despise, really.
It is not OK to despise, bellwells.
It is wrong.
If you do, you become unable to keep learning.
And to learn is what is all about.We have to learn, we must. We are all here. And no_one wants to be destroyed. How can you imagine any other thing ? or think you have the right and non the others ?
Cant you see the despise is an end_way leading to nowhere but war ?It is absolutely NOT wrong to despise someone or something for cause. Would you despise the person who harmed your family?
(Edit: Very sorry about the multiple posts above)
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@mr s said:
I have a few Muslim acquaintances and most have expressed their distaste, in general, for the decadent West. Most also felt that 9/11 was something America had coming to them as payback. I have tried pointing out to them the contradiction of their choice to live and work in the West whilst holding these views. That’s another story!
This is the concept of taqiyya--a deceitful outward demeanor.
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@bellwells said:
It's OK to despise, really.
Statement of the day.
Primitive and almost something a hockey mom would say just before bed time to reassure her son :'shht now, it's ok to despise...'
pun intended.
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@kwistenbiebel said:
@bellwells said:
It's OK to despise, really.
Statement of the day.
Primitive and almost something a hockey mom would say just before bed time to reassure her son :'shht now, it's ok to despise...'pun intended.
Primitive, huh? Good one. Let's see how many other adjectives the enlightened crowd can come up with. Come on now, put your mushy heads together.
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Ron,
Why so aggressive?
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Pete, I'm tired of the name calling. It's petty, juvenile and typical of the left when faced with dissenting opinions.
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I think we've found something to agree on Ron
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@bellwells said:
@kwistenbiebel said:
@bellwells said:
It's OK to despise, really.
Statement of the day.
Primitive and almost something a hockey mom would say just before bed time to reassure her son :'shht now, it's ok to despise...'pun intended.
Primitive, huh? Good one. Let's see how many other adjectives the enlightened crowd can come up with. Come on now, put your mushy heads together.
Ron, I agree: no need for name calling. But then, I can think of a few occasions where you indulged in it yourself. Double standards are a no-no.
Anyways. Gentlemen, could we all please keep our manners? Leftist twts and neocon bst*rds alike? Don't make me come over there and put my socialist foot up yer *ss!
As for despising, I think it's okay too. Your mind is your own private playground. It's not okay to act upon it, though. You gotta treat people with respect, even if it's only for the sake of convention.
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That is well written Stinkie.
I agree.
Let´s calm. -
Yes, calm is good. I need a rest from standing my ground. Stinkie, thanks for umpiring this round.
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@remus said:
You gotta treat people with respect, even if it's only for the sake of convention.
Thanks for the words, Stinkie. And I have long thought that we treat other people with respect for our own benefit as much as theirs.
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@bellwells said:
Yes, calm is good. I need a rest from standing my ground. Stinkie, thanks for umpiring this round.
No problem. Vote Obama!
@pbacot said:
(...) And I have long thought that we treat other people with respect for our own benefit as much as theirs.
There's some truth in that, I think.
If y'all will excuse me, I gotta back to worrying about my savings.
The crisis has hit the shores of sunny Belgium. -
Well I'm glad I kept my comments at bay last night and cooler heads prevailed.
I will say, calmly, I don't think it is okay to dispise, especially whole groups of people (yes, I do it, no, I don't like it...even in my personal playground). And I don't think Jesus thought(thinks?) it's okay either...at least from what I've read anyway...?
(This recurring incongruity really trips my trigger!)
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