I Believe (to address the complaints of last week)

tomsdesk

Backing up a bit: Cornel...please provide your definition of "soul" that precludes the mouse having one, thanks. (And please, PLEASE, in your own words and feelings...rather than the chapter and verse.)

Also, everyone: isn't it a very narrow view of Christianity that disallows the acceptance of Evolution? (Is the "Darwin was or wasn't" really a matter of signicance to one or the other?) Surely it's not either/or?

Alan Fraser

Cornel,
Even if that were true (which it isn't), he converted to Christianity from what? He was bound for the clergy before he ever set foot aboard the Beagle.
There's nothing inconsistent in believing in both God and evolution. All that is required is not to believe that everything in the Bible is the literal truth.
The Bible is not the word of God, it's a collection of human writings. The Songs of Solomon are just that...Solomon's....not God's. The Bible wasn't sanctified until the Council of Nicea in the fourth century. It's present contents owe far more to the politics of the early Christian church than to religion.

cornel

Yes, Modelhead,
I’m “more important than a mouse”…, and Jesus died tu save our (human) pretious souls, …not mice, not animals!

Alan,
Darwin converted to Christianity because:
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
(Mark 8:36)
THE SOUL IS IMMORTAL!

P.S.: Books of The Bible were inspired, (or dictated) by God.

Cornel

Alan Fraser

Cornel,
You miss the point. Mostly because you are yet again simply quoting Bible verses instead of using reasoned argument.

a) Darwin did not "convert" to Christianity.
b) The immortality or otherwise of a soul is totally irrelevant to a belief in Evolution. As Tom says, it's not an either/or. Only fundamentalists with closed minds claim that it is. Even Richard Dawkins admits that the two things are not mutually exclusive...confirmed atheist that he is.

The story of Darwin's deathbed conversion is a fiction of Creationists, based upon the testimony of a certain Lady Hope. According to the story, Lady Hope said her visit was ""during that glorious autumn afternoon…"

Darwin died in APRIL 1882. Darwin's daughter Henrietta was at his deathbed. She said that her father did not become a Christian before he died. This was reported in the Humanist magazine. Henrietta went on to state that she could not remember her father ever being visited by such a lady and that the entire story seemed to have been fabricated in the USA.
Darwin's son Francis wrote a book about his father in which no mention was made that his father was ever converted. Quite the contrary, he confirmed that he was an agnostic, an unbeliever until his dying day.

It seems to me that those who pride themselves on following The Truth aren't above stooping to a little falsehood. For shame.

P.S. The Nicene Creed established some fundamental precepts (such as the nature of the Trinity...Christ's relationship to the Father) by a VOTE, for goodness sake. How can that possibly be interpreted as a dictate of God?

baz

@juanv.soler said:

I have got to the point of understanding that I believe,(I am certain of), what I feel.
So I am what I feel and that makes unnecesary the need to believe.
Further more I am able to avoid the feels I dont like.
So, pretty good for now.

As I did a lot of mental_rational_thinking about what was worth to believe in and got to the conclusion that if *** existed I obviously had to know about *** I sort of make a submission to life itself, in the sense of not unnecesary_strugglings, and keep watching whats happens inside myself.

and i think i am getting sure to have what i always wanted to have
the certainty that *** lives in me as i like He to live in me.
have to see yet if that is a sin or .the inevitable way of my living

Juan, I am so into that. You express it to the max. thanks.
ps: is it just me, or is cornel really boring?

Stinkie

@unknownuser said:

Yes, Modelhead,
I’m “more important than a mouse”…,

Now, now. Don't forget the good Lord's immanence. That mouse is a pars pro toto.

JuanV.Soler

thankyou Baz

Alan Fraser

Juan,
I do actually believe in God....I even attend church more than most; and I think there are some great lessons in the Bible. But I also believe that those other guys I mentioned...and modern science in general, have it correct.
I have no idea whether the end of this journey we are all on ends in a big celebration or a complete train wreck followed by nothingness...but I am enjoying the ride so far.

I'm blown away by the fact that if you zoom in close enough, right down to the sub-atomic level, there's nothing there at all apart from some tiny packets of energy separated by immense distances. In fact what we have convinced ourselves is reality, solid matter, is so nebulous that something like a neutrino can pass right through the entire planet without hitting anything at all.

Maybe God is in the details. Maybe we are just a figment of someone's imagination.

JuanV.Soler

by the way, i like Cornel

hey Alan,
there is a book that was written in the 600 year, the Corán.
i have read it and i have felt there is something divine on there.
from my point of view it is much clearer the message from *** there.
i am with you that the book from Christianity is, better than a book to learn, a book to read ,
sometines.

JuanV.Soler

I like it
maybe
but someone good )))

Stinkie

@juanv.soler said:

but someone good )))

Not too sure about that. If indeed 'all of this' is being dreamt up by some entity, it surely is one with a cruel and unsympathetic streak.

JuanV.Soler

dont get so much in touch with it then

no?

Stinkie

And as for the Bible, there's so much cruelty in that one, that I'm fairly certain it was written by men. We're a nasty bunch.

cheffey

@tomsdesk said:

I believe in the magic of the unknown and its ever-evolving revelations.
I stand in awe of the universe from telescopic through and to microscopic.
I worship life (including "a life of it's own") where ever I find it.
How 'bout you?

well Tom, since you asked about what i believe and not what's in books, legend or in some geologist's diary, I'll tell you.

I believe that everything has a spirit and that everything has their space.
I believe we should respect that.
I believe we all loose our wings sometimes...
I believe that good whiskey shouldn't be wasted without good friends.
I believe children laughing is the single best thing I've ever heard.
I believe that a good woman is something to hold close to your chest.
I believe that things we all care about most, pass too fast.

a supreme being maybe, maybe not, but i call him the same name...

*once they were a part of me
now they have taken the best of me
i hoped that you'd someday see
something better from me

i hoped to let the go
i hoped they wouldn't show
they gave me freedom and pain
and i will never be the same

different from the others i'm sure
though there is something worse in store
what i have become needn't be spoken
my head is pressing and my will is broken

when mine eyes shed that last tear
blood soaked, burdened, and riddled with fear
i will call up to you, where i once soared
with hope that you will send me home, my lord*

sometimes it takes a loss to find the roses, but it's only then that you can truly appreciate them.

JuanV.Soler

that is a book to eat

Chris Fullmer

@unknownuser said:

The blind arrogance of religion, creating this distinction fosters separation...discord....prejudice. You characterize all christian based religion with this simple statement...

@unknownuser said:

Animal kingdom is without spirits…

Religion is the scourge of the earth. The sooner the multitude of immaculately conceived, man-made gods are exposed as just interesting fiction (I believe the last time they were counted there where 14 of them....no Jesus has no exclusive claim to this phenomena)...........the sooner the earth will begin to heal itself.
Cornel, I'm sorry to offend you but you are not part of the solution ...you are the problem.
Start living on earth!! Stop claiming to be a god, because surely you do by suggesting you are more important than a mouse.

Interesting, I find your comments to be full of separation, discord, prejudice and hate.

Perhaps it is moral superiority that is a negative force on this earth. Feeling as if one is better than their peers is what is evil. Getting over these feelings is what was at the heart of Christ's teachings. Not mice and men, not telling others you are better than them. Humility and kindness, understanding and compassion. We are all on this earth together. Its ok to have different opinions and ideas from other people. But its not ok to impose ones moral self righteousness on others. If you want someone to believe as you do, be an example of what you believe. Talk about what you believe. Share your beliefs openly. But don't start off by saying you hate them and they are wrong, so they need to change immediately.

Just my thoughts. this is always an interesting conversation when it comes up. BTW, why did it come up? What were the complaints of last week?

Chris

remus

Chris, i ithnk the complaints of last week were that there isnt enough in depth a interesting conversation going on in the corner bar.

To answer the OP, i beleive people should aim to have fun in whatever they do, but not at the detrement of others.

Stinkie

Correct me if I'm wrong, mr. Fullmer, but isn't a certain sense of moral superiority at the very core of every religion? Don't get me wrong here, I agree with you on the "we're all in it together" thing.

I think Bruce was thinking of fundamentalism. That one indeed is a scourge. Can't "meet in the middle" with fundamentalists.

JuanV.Soler

why do you think so stinkie ?

andyc

@tomsdesk said:

Also, everyone: isn't it a very narrow view of Christianity that disallows the acceptance of Evolution? ?

Tom - really important issue you've raised there. The liberal Christian church has been tying itself in knots trying to incorporate evolution into its belief system. I don't see how they can:
Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God; the Bible clearly states that the earth, and all life upon it was created in seven days. Evolution contradicts this completely, as does the geological record. The two are utterly incompatible, and cannot both be correct. For my part I prefer to 'believe' the unequivocal and ever-growing evidence that science continues to reveal, rather than the obscure teachings from two millenia ago.

Andy.