Newbie Q: How would you present your model/output 4 court?
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Gday,
Thanks for reading this (my first) post.
Been admiring the passion and friendly manner on these boards for about a month or so since discovering.
ONYA! (Aust. slang for good on you!)My name is Film. I'm considered a bit of a dinosaur to some, but I've still got a lot to offer
I'm involved with (insert serious tone) a legal project and without getting too far into gruesome details (spare you the burden) I'm recreating an "environment" (interior space) for what is "factual" purposes.
My question is how do I avoid any pernicious (harmful) interpretations from legal (bleeps) who may 'attack' the model as in - that the "environment / space" has been "interpreted" in it's presentation with bias?
I'm mindful it's a tough case, there is a "vigorous" defense involved and ANY probable perception of styling anomaly will probably be challenged. (The accuracy of the models dimensions etc. will not be in issue).
The space is a small television station. It's a bit of a conundrum for me as TV stations have lotsa lighting and the facts of the matters are there is real drama in the substance of the case and the temptation is to "add" drama in such things as lighting. Yet courts like things to be 'sanitized.' Void of any tainting / coloring.
I can see there is real inherit value of using (navigating) a 3D model in the type / case and the consequent output (printing of images) of the model will include people in particular positions - hard to "reconstruct" in a TV show style 'reconstruction' sense (even though my day job is as a D.O.P - director of photography) as there is no budget. It's not practical to acquire extensive photos either as there is no prolonged access to the space.
So how would you present your interpretation of the recreation of the space (interior) for a legal matter in a safe and literally unbiased way?
I have considered straight output from the SU model using simple grayscale tones or light pastel shadings or b/w line drawings of the surfaces / materials. Or ambient occlusion / clay rendering to simulate a real world type "model" effect. Yet, it would be of help to capture some "atmosphere" as there is considerable lighting originating within a TV station.
What would you do? What's the safe bet?
I would include some images of the model to date, for your thoughts, but it's NQTY (not quite there yet) to feel comfy about showing and there may indeed be legal issues in doing so. Dunno!
Anyways, thanks again for reading this post.
Cheers,
Film
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Hi Film and glad you came out of silence finally!
(since you're here for a while, I cannot say Welcome") Yes a little bit more elaboration of the case (and definitely supported by some images) would be nice.
As for a studio (if I'm interpreting it right) some lighting studies would definitely be nice so you may consider some external rendering methiods (although I might misunderstand something here).
As for the legal stuff, I don't see your point so if you could be a bit more clear, it would be nice. Though I'm a lawyer myself I doubt that (besides some general and by now "universal" principles) Icould give advice since Anglo-Saxon law systems is quite different from our "Continental" systems (and particularly every country is somewhat different) but a more detailed explanation would be cool.
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what do you want the model to show? is it just the layout of the studio or do you want to try and get a feel for the atmosphere?
if its just the layout, id model the studio as accurately as possible and then cut away the top surface and 2 walls. Id have thought this would give a good idea of the layout.
If you want to get a bit of atmosphere in there, thats a bit harder, especially if you dont want it to be misinterpreted. Id guess the best thing to do would be to try and keep it as toned down as possible. Perhaps a few softish renders, nothing too abstract really.
Hope that helps a bit
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Hey Gaieus,
Are you not involved with the kerkythea rendering engine? If so Kudos to you!
I would certainly like to post some images of the model being work upon. Or any reference points. But alas there are legal issues I am yet to fully understand.
It's early days in terms of the court proceeding date, so I may have a chance to show the project as it evolves. I certainly hope so.
My real conundrum / dilemma is that anglo law in my country is an "adversarial" system. It is not an "inquisitorial" system. Such as is the case in some or most european law.
That basically means, in an adversarial system ANYTHING can be attacked. As the "system" is not about "TRUTH FINDING" it is about who "ARGUES" the best.
That is why I'm concerned for delivering a representation of the 'space' that is something that cannot be really "attacked." Or in other words, that stands alone in representing what the recreation of the space is. In an 'un-bias' way. (It's a murky area - as what is "un-bias" anyways?)
Ideally, photorealism (in as accurate a form as possible) in "showing/recreating" the space would be perfect. But alas, my skills are not there yet and I probably need to find a style or output which says this is an accepted 'neutral' style. Or a style that is considered a "standard" in the industry / community of 3d graphics incl. SU.
At the very least, if I am able to output either directly from SU or to use a rendering program to achieve a 'standard' output, I will at the least be able to say to the legal reps, this is considered a 'standard' output / render.
If I may ask a more specific question, assuming you do have involvement in Kerkythea for instance, what it is that determines what the default settings for a standard preset in a (Kerkythea) rendering engine anyways?
Thanks for your interest in my post.
I will endeavor to see if I am able to post the model or reference pics on the web to help better illuminate my topic.
Cheers,
Film
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@remus said:
what do you want the model to show? is it just the layout of the studio or do you want to try and get a feel for the atmosphere?
if its just the layout, id model the studio as accurately as possible and then cut away the top surface and 2 walls. Id have thought this would give a good idea of the layout.
Yep. Good idea. cut away the top surface and 2 walls.
It would be a consultation to 'recreate' atmosphere as it is the 'confinement' of a studio mixed with the business of the studio which will tell the "story."
Unfortunately, it is a serious matter Remus. Sadly, about workplace bullying leading to assault of adolescents by a boss when elder workers apparently stood by (not literally but know of) assaults happening. So there is importance in getting any recreation within a tolerance that The Powers That Be would accept.
Certainly a cutaway will assist in showing the space and I've noted your suggestion.
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Film,
This sounds a really interesting project. My firm does some public enquiry work for sensitive construction projects. In this work we some times have to produce photomontages and also 3D visuals. In the UK there is best practice guidelines on what level of zoom and type of camera used for the montages. But also for the 3d visuals, when we have to place a proposed building in a landscape we use 3D Studio Max. This is because you can geo-reference the view point and match it into a photograph taken from that reference.
Sorry if that’s not clear hope it helped.
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@tobobo said:
Film,
My firm does some public enquiry work for sensitive construction projects. In this work we some times have to produce photomontages and also 3D visuals. In the UK there is best practice guidelines on what level of zoom and type of camera used for the montages.
Tobobo,
Yes. It's certainly an interesting project and thank you for your reply. A bit of brain drain from the day and soon to crash but I'll certainly consider your reply with more thought more tomorrow.
Guidelines? The UK? Similar type (legal) districts. Can you point me towards them please? Are they publically available?
Best of..
Film
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Film, sorry to say that other than trying to learn Kerky, I am not related to it. Maybe you are mixing me up with Giannis (the two names might sem to be similar in a way).
As Toby was going on with the idea of photomontaging, the photomatch feature of SU comes to my mind (note that I'm not an expert at it). You can insert a photo into SU and build up your model based on the current view in SU. If you make sure to create a scene when doing so, you can orbit, work on the model, change anything but eventually you can always go back to the original scene and apart from the changes you'll be able to match the original photo and the image rendered either from SU or Kerky (or an other external render softwares where you can export your camera position and view).
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Film
If i were you I would just create an dimensionally accurate SU model.
Surely if there is a chance that the re-cronstruction will be criticised, forget the rendering, don't be artistic, just be as accurate as possible.Could you present your model in court in Sketchup? That way it can be rotated.
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Yes that's true. An interactive way would be even better. There's the free SU viewer that isn't a robust program at all.
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Welcome, here are a couple of random thoughts:
If there is a chance of the visuals being 'judged' then I'd avoid any visual reality, what I mean by this is that whilst all your dimensions are as correct as you can make them non of the colours should be, and especially the lighting. This is what photos of the actual scene are for.
If lets say a room has a blue patterned carpet then just show it as flat blue, the last thing you want is for a clever (huh) lawyer to dismiss the model/images as being factually incorrect because of such things.
This is a MODEL of a scene not the scene itself and you need to clarify the purpose of the model, if it is to portray a sequence of events then its the events, their sequence and location that is important not the accuracy of the wood grain of the table onto which someone cracked their skull.
As for fancy lighting, I'd avoid it completely as you can only produce a representation of light and this is YOUR representation, again it could be picked apart easily. If you need to indicate say, sunlight through a window then have a dirty great arrow pointing at a window with the word "SUNLIGHT" on it and leave the interpretation to the lawyers.
Remember you are producing a tool for someone else to use to archive THIER goal, in in this case I believe less is more.
Edit:
Looks like Jon had the same thoughts and got in just before meWith regard to what Jon said about presenting the model is a good idea, additionally make sure you supply not only the model but all your source material (drawings/photos/notes etc) and a copy of the current version of Google Sketchup Free on at least 2 disks to whoever requests it with instructions that THEY are responsible for archiving/storing the disks/data in whatever procedures they prescribe.
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Further to Paul Russam's suggestions:
What you are producing would be called (in US courts) a demonstrative not "facts". I used to do a lot of forensic work in many court cases and Paul Russam is quite correct -- less is more. Do not attempt "realism" that could trigger an objection that would be upheld (you don't get a second chance in the courtroom). Keep it simple and representational and make sure that you do not lose your audience (whether judge or jury) in the transitions. -
I'm hearing ya.... (pmiller, paul R, Jon Wood...) KISS "Keep It Simple Stupid."
Thanks for the assistance with direction.
I agree avoiding 'realism' is the safe bet (under the circumstances) and committing to delivering accurate dimensions, flat colors etc.
I especially like the suggestion from PR... "dirty great arrow pointing at a window with the word "SUNLIGHT" on it and leave the interpretation to the lawyers."
I'll be keen to post some models and intend to do so. If they don't try and hush me.
Thanks guys.
Soon...
Film
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The case will have to be all tied up first before you post the models. Under Uk law at least, if you circulate case documents outside the court prior to the verdict (sub-judice)you will be in breach of the law.
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