Poll: Mac vs PC

[not registered yet]

I've been using PCs since I got my first IBM clone in 1985. I couldn't even guess how many I've had at home and at work since then, except they surely keep getting better. In that 22 years, I've been through five versions of DOS and six of Windows, and the OS keeps getting better, too. (Well, we'll see about Vista.) Yeah, it occasionally gets locked up and I need to reboot, but I haven't had chronic instability issues since Windows 98, and I haven't lost any data for much longer than that, except for a hard drive crash a few years back.

In those same 22 years, I've worked for three major aerospace engineering corporations (it would be more accurate to say my company has been owned by three major corporations; I haven't gone anywhere). They have all gone with PCs running Windows. We saw the last Mac go somewhere around 1990 as it was pried from the fingers of an unhappy Apple stalwart. Windows XP engineering workstations displaced the last UNIX boxes four or five years ago. They are fast, powerful, and dependable. They run Pro/E, CATIA, Mentor Graphics, (and two copies of SU). It's all about the bottom line.

-Gully

[Gully Foyle]

[Glenn at home]

Exactly my point Edson. I have an older Mac and it works fine as does my 2 older PCs as well as my current PC. They all "just work". I can use both just fine but I just prefer the PC (I guess I just prefer AutoCAD). Yes, you are stuck with what Apple wants you to have unless you buy the highend tower, which I don't need. I would imagine that this helps get Apple products selling. Need a better graphics card in your iMac? Well pony up and buy a new model. Only the high-end iMac can upgrade graphics and still imagine that it is expensive. Atleast now with the Intel macs we can buy upgrades to the CPU without having to be restrcited to a hand ful of vendors.

@unknownuser said:

hi glenn, come to think of it, you are damned right.

i have been a mac user for 12 years but only recently it dawned on me that unless you own the top apple model (the cheese graters) you are stuck with what they but inside the box. sometime ago i wanted to get a faster graphic card for one of my emacs but could not as it comes soldered to the motherboard (which cannot be upgraded either, by the way).

so far i have been quite happy with the many macs i have owned but what you mention is indeed a limitation. one wonders why apple does not do the obvious thing. perhaps now that they moved to intel they will start thinking differently.

cheers,

[Edson]

exactly. the high end macs are amazing machines. no wonder most advertising agencies (at least their image processing depts) and video production companies use mostly macs.

my question is: why do not apple allow us who are not such power users to have machines that could be upgradeable? i do not need a super machine like the 8-core mac pro but i do need more than my emacs with a meager video card (32 Mb).

my current machine is an imac intel with a 128 Mb video card. but what if i need more than that in the future?

cheers.

[Glenn at home]

My point exactly. I needed a newer video card last year so I bought one and switched it. Same to be said with NICs and sound cards. I do not want a machine with hard wired components.

I honeslty believe it is so Apple can try to force hardware updates. Say you need a newer version of X (whatever cat name it is this year) but your video card is not up to snuff. Well just buy a new iMac. No thanks. The $100 a year updates for OSX is bad enough to me. IMHO

I would think that the responce in the hacker community of installing X on non Apple hardware would open their eyes. They could be a software company, really they could. Sell software and iPods. I would bet on a market share jump from under 5% to 15% or so in one year of releasing OSX to the masses. Though they would have to step up to drivers issues and such. That would be a challenge.

@unknownuser said:

exactly. the high end macs are amazing machines. no wonder most advertising agencies (at least their image processing depts) and video production companies use mostly macs.

my question is: why do not apple allow us who are not such power users to have machines that could be upgradeable? i do not need a super machine like the 8-core mac pro but i do need more than my emacs with a meager video card (32 Mb).

my current machine is an imac intel with a 128 Mb video card. but what if i need more than that in the future?

cheers.

[linea]

I have been reading this thread with interest as my loyal five year old Sony Vaio laptop died running XP died last week. It cannot be upgraded as it is physically impossible to fit any more stuff inside. It has served me well, handling 3d apps, graphics, CAD etc. So I need a new machine.
I have always had PCs but I will probably buy a mac.

The reasons being;

Mac users never look stressed, PC users often look very ill.

Viruses are virtually unheard of for the mac. PC Virus protection is a license to print money for the likes of Norton, McAfee etc.

Vista is just pretty, underneath it is still basically the same operating system that gave us Windows 95. Also I have yet to meet anybody who likes it.

Virtual PC for the Mac will run virtually every windows app including AutoCAD.

Macs are more expensive but the main reason for this is a smaller market share and ethical manufacture. Bill Gates, IBM and the rest do very nicely out of third world low paid labour.

My main reason is Microsoft have too much money and I can't use Linux.

That said I may be a hypocrit and still buy a PC if I can't afford a Mac.

[Edson]

@unknownuser said:

I have always had PCs but I will probably buy a mac.

Virtual PC for the Mac will run virtually every windows app including AutoCAD.

That said I may be a hypocrit and still buy a PC if I can't afford a Mac.

hi jon,

today there are better applications than virtual pc: parallels and bootcamp allow for much smoother running. and bootcamp is free from apple (it is supposed to be part of next OS).

is the mac still so much more expensive than pcs in the US?

if you decide to buy a mac laptop check the macbook pro out.

regards,

edson

[Glenn at home]

@unknownuser said:

I have been reading this thread with interest as my loyal five year old Sony Vaio laptop died running XP died last week. It cannot be upgraded as it is physically impossible to fit any more stuff inside. It has served me well, handling 3d apps, graphics, CAD etc. So I need a new machine.
I have always had PCs but I will probably buy a mac.

Well, you will not be able to upgrade hardly "any" laptops Mac or PC. Kind of a null point to me. There are PC laptops that can be upgraded. Dell precision laptops have upgradable video cards as do a few other high end models from other brands. Still expensive and not as easy as a desktop.

@unknownuser said:

The reasons being;

Mac users never look stressed, PC users often look very ill.

In the eye of the beholder I guess. My PC gives me no trouble so "your milage my vary" I guess

@unknownuser said:

Viruses are virtually unheard of for the mac. PC Virus protection is a license to print money for the likes of Norton, McAfee etc.

Norton and McAfee are virusus in my opinion. There are freeware virus programs that work better and use WAY less resources.

@unknownuser said:

Vista is just pretty, underneath it is still basically the same operating system that gave us Windows 95. Also I have yet to meet anybody who likes it.

Ok 2 things, if you don't like Vista don't use it. You are not forced to use it. XP can still be bought. There is nothing and I mean nothing from Win95 in Vista. Vista is built on technology from XP which was built on Windows 2000 which was built on Windows NT. XP has nothing to do with Dos, Win95, 98 or WinMillieum. They shared a similar look way back when but they are as different as OSX and OS9.

@unknownuser said:

Virtual PC for the Mac will run virtually every windows app including AutoCAD.

Virtural PC is now owned by MS and in fact they give it away free (minus the second OS). BootCamp and Parallels are better solutions if you own an Intel Mac.

@unknownuser said:

Macs are more expensive but the main reason for this is a smaller market share and ethical manufacture. Bill Gates, IBM and the rest do very nicely out of third world low paid labour.

Umm most if not all Macs come off the vary same assembly lines as do other PCs, from 3rd world countries. Dell is the only company I know of with US based assembly lines.

@unknownuser said:

My main reason is Microsoft have too much money and I can't use Linux.

And you think Apple is poor??

@unknownuser said:

That said I may be a hypocrit and still buy a PC if I can't afford a Mac.

Well if you want one get one. The good news is you won't be stuck since you can boot up XP with BootCamp. For me, the cost of the system plus having to buy all new software even with a discount off with having the PC version it is just not worth it to me. Honestly if Jobs would take some medication for his "Megalomaniac" problem and just make a damn consumer tower for $1,000 I would probably get one but I doubt he will.
I also wonder why effects his release of Safari for windows will have on the Macs low/no virus status. I have a theory that the macs security comes from it's obscurity (low market share) but with this more he moves to become more of a mrket share on the web and by also letting people code for Safari will this increase the likelyhood of attacks to this browser? Time will tell.

[juju]

@unknownuser said:

Viruses are virtually unheard of for the mac.

Might have been unheard of (or rather scarce), but you still get them, plus the threat is growing...

http://software.silicon.com/malware/0,3800003100,39167424,00.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12537279/
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000737.htm

Take note, this last link says that if you're running emulation software on your Mac (and obviously running MS Windows), then you can still get a virus on your Mac.

[linea]

Hi all,

Sorry if I annoyed some people with my view of windows, all your views were valid and thanks for the advice, but the mac users will get the last laugh. On Friday I spent £1400 on a new Toshiba laptop running Vista. I know, I know, I could have bought a mac for the same price. You pc lot gave me cold feet so I stayed under the familiar wing of uncle Bill.

I wish I hadn't, SU doesn't run, I've tried all the workarounds, Photoshop CS2 doesn't run,3DS MAX 8 doesn't, Architectural Desktop 2005 doesn't, the list goes on. My trusty old version of Serif Page Plus 9 is about the only thing I've found that does. I will have to buy the latest versions of the lot.

My mac using mates think I'm a fool.
The biggest advantage Apple have ever had over PCs is surely the release of Vista. If anyone can help, please let me know.

[Mike Lucey]

As far as upgradability goes on a Mac, well I use
laptops for the most part and its difficult to
upgrade CPUs or V Cards on these machines be they
PCs or Macs.

However I am aware that many Apple Stores, the ones
located in cities mostly, will quite readily take in
an older Mac as a trade-in ! This in my opinion
should be quite an attractive inducement for users
that want to stay on the cutting edge of graphics
orientated machines.

To check this out all one has to do is look up
an independent Apples Resellers Site and they usually
have a sellection of 'Used Hardware'. I think the
reason this works so well is bacause of the Apple /
Graphic Design link. The Apple Stores are often
located in cities that have Art Colleges and there
is always a ready market of Art / Graphics students
on tight budgets looking for Macs

Far better that trying to flog the old laptop on
Ebay

Anyone interested in a Dell M90, a Eurocom Enigma
or a Dell M60

Mike

[Mike Lucey]

@unknownuser said:

Viruses are virtually unheard of for the mac.

Might have been unheard of (or rather scarce), but you still get them, plus the threat is growing...

http://software.silicon.com/malware/0,3800003100,39167424,00.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12537279/
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000737.htm

Take note, this last link says that if you're running emulation software on your Mac (and obviously running MS Windows), then you can still get a virus on your Mac.[/quote]

On the last link, it states,
'Most of the virus writers are familiar with the IBM platform and Microsoft Windows, and therefore are only going to be able to create a virus for that platform.'

Hey ! I wonder does this mean that its 'nicer' people that use Macs and would not dream of writing a virus

I'm bloody well glad that I made the switch and stongly advise any 'fence sitter' out there to take the leap of faith ...... I've yet to hear of an opposite switcher Does ANYONE know of one

[Ross Macintosh]

Mike I switched from Macs to pc and I'm glad I did. With the name Macintosh I was for a number of years a serious Mac-addict. I'm glad I was cured.

Recently someone in these forums posted a screenshot of the mac finder. I cringed! Yikes! Talk about info overload! For me it is just bad interface design. I much prefer Microsoft's fairly intuitive 'file explorer' approach.

I'm glad there are multiple OS choices for consumers. Hopefully each computer user can find the OS that makes them most comfortable. To each his own.

Regards, Ross

[Edson]

@ross macintosh said:

Recently someone in these forums posted a screenshot of the mac finder. I cringed! Yikes! Talk about info overload! For me it is just bad interface design. I much prefer Microsoft's fairly intuitive 'file explorer' approach.

ross,

i am to blame for the posting of the offensive screenshot. i apologise for any pain it may have inflicted in you and promise to try my best to refrain from posting such stuff in the future.

very humbly yours,

edson

p.s.: just pulling your leg. you have every right not to like macintoshes.

[Mike Lucey]

@ross macintosh said:

Mike I switched from Macs to pc and I'm glad I did. With the name Macintosh I was for a number of years a serious Mac-addict. I'm glad I was cured.

Recently someone in these forums posted a screenshot of the mac finder. I cringed! Yikes! Talk about info overload! For me it is just bad interface design. I much prefer Microsoft's fairly intuitive 'file explorer' approach.

I'm glad there are multiple OS choices for consumers. Hopefully each computer user can find the OS that makes them most comfortable. To each his own.

Regards, Ross

Ross,

I was not that keen on Mac Finder either BUT I found
Macintosh Explorer, works a treat

Maybe you would consider doing a Double Switch

Mike

[Edson]

@unknownuser said:

I was not that keen on Mac Finder either BUT I found
Macintosh Explorer, works a treat

mike,

is it shareware, freeware or what? i am so used to the finder that I cannot really see in which way any explorer-type app ca be better. could you just give me an example?

regards.

edson

[lewiswadsworth]

And now for Something Completely Different.

Windows Vista vs. Ubuntu Linux Beryl, with a techno soundtrack:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/434675/windows_vista_aero_vs_linux_ubuntu_beryl/

Interesting that they don't bring Mac into the fray.

(If SketchUp ran on Linux, I would be so "outa here" with Windows.

--Lewis

[Lewis Wadsworth]

[Mike Lucey]

@unknownuser said:

I was not that keen on Mac Finder either BUT I found
Macintosh Explorer, works a treat

mike,

is it shareware, freeware or what? i am so used to the finder that I cannot really see in which way any explorer-type app ca be better. could you just give me an example?

regards.

edson

Hi Edson,

After jumping into OSX I must admit I missed some of the
'old ways'. I have however located quite a few Mac programs
and utilities that helped to ease the transition and Mac
Explorer is one of them. At €15 I think its good value.

The Rage Site explains the features of Mac Explorer far better
than I could, so I'd suggest that you have a quick look. The
link is here, http://www.ragesw.com/products/explorer.html

Another utility that I'm using permanently is Sticky Windows.
This utility allows me to 'grab' a program window and 'slap'
it to the edge of the screen. It sticks there as a tab !
I think this is a better alternative to the 'Dock' as I like
to leave the dock clean, just to be used for programs. You can
check out Sticky Windows at
http://www.donelleschi.com/stickywindows/ BTW this firm does
a few other useful little utilities, Cunning Fox being one of
them.

Mike

[linea]

Well after much harrasment I've got SU and a few other programs working on Vista. ACAD is a non starter though. I have to say though there are a few useful tools in Vista but not many.

[Glenn at home]

@unknownuser said:

Well after much harrasment I've got SU and a few other programs working on Vista. ACAD is a non starter though. I have to say though there are a few useful tools in Vista but not many.

I had to right click the ACAD icon and set it to run in compatibility mode (WinXP) and with Admin. rights to get Acad-07 to run in Vista. It really only took a few minutes on the AutoCAD site to find out how. What version are you running?

[linea]

Architectural Desktop 2005 but I'm thinking about buying Allplan by Nemetschek rather than AutoCAD 2008. Check Allplan out, I've seen it demonstrated, amazing