Sign for Peace in Palestine UPDATE!
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
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@solo said:
Your opinion is obviously biased as you are Jewish, had you not had a horse in this race I'm sure you would have a different opinion.
And no, I am not jewish (are you arab?), I am not even a great admirer of Israël that seems to have drifted from the state of its founders into a semi theocratic state looking more and more like other states around it.
But war is war and terrorism is terrorism. No state can accept to have missiles targeting its civil population without using its military forces to stop that. And if you fire missiles at your neighbour's civilians, you can't complain too much when he retaliates. -
@solo said:
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
It certainly won't happen with the Hamas. Their official program is the full map in green and the destruction of Israel.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
It certainly won't happen with the Hamas. Their official program is the full map in green and the destruction of Israel.
And here we can agree, Hamas is the cancer, but how do we remove the cancer without killing the patient?
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@solo said:
And here we can agree, Hamas is the cancer, but how do we remove the cancer without killing the patient?
I can certainly agree on that. And I have not the solution, if even one exists (which I greatly doubt).
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Done
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Israeli shell hits UN school in Gaza killing 15 people, including UN staff
http://www.thejournal.ie/un-school-gaza-israel-strike-1588233-Jul2014/
From UN reports, the Israelis forces had been advised about the UN school and even given geo locations! This obviously did not make any difference.Israel's actions are totally disproportionate and it looks that world opinion, excluding a certain sector in US, UK and EU government is turning a blind eye to what is happening ..... gradual genocide imo.
I imagine Israel feels it can safely continue along this path as Hamas has burned its bridges with its neighbours in the area and the rest of the world doesn't care.
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.... as regards the truce offer. Israel is not willing to allow free movement to from Palestine by land or sea. They want to retain the world's largest open prison.
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
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@mike lucey said:
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
Well, they've been around since 1987, so ... pretty much like it was before '87: bad. Hamas is a mere symptom, albeit a nasty one. IMHO.
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@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
Well, they've been around since 1987, so ... pretty much like it was before '87: bad. Hamas is a mere symptom, albeit a nasty one. IMHO.
The root to this mess goes back much further than 1987. I've located a maps diagram which covers the history of the situation here,
To my surprise and the surprise of many Irish citizens our country abstained on a UN vote 'UN Human Rights Council States vote on resolution establishing independent Commission of Inquiry for OPT & Gaza' Only the US voted against.
There is an interesting debate among ordinary Irish folks on the matter here, http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-eu-human-rights-council-1586964-Jul2014/
I keep thinking back to my point about the IRA, Northern Ireland, UK Government and Irish Government. If after 25 years of vicious situation that looked hopeless PEACE could be achieved thought talks, compromise on ALL sides, there should be hope for a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. In the case of the Northern Ireland peace the US played a major part but I do not think they can be the honest arbitrator in this case.
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Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet... -
@andyc said:
Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet...
I think the NI solution worked because there were some good arbitrators involved on all sides. The question is who is going to act as an honest arbitrator with no prejudice and trusted by all sides in this conflict ..... thats going to be difficult to find ........ someone of Nelson Mandela's calibre?
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What a pharisaism
! Dudes have you noticed that during last 2 years 250000 Muslims were killed (by Muslims)in neighboring Syria along! that roughly x1000 times more than lost in Gaza lately.
Another funny fact: Palestinian rocket attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time.
Could you imagine 4000 rockets falling on Dublin or Dallas without adequate reaction? -
I guess your definition of an adequate reaction differs from mine.
And to describe the preceding posts as pharisaism is, I feel, to misunderstand the humanitarian compassion that motivated them.
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some zoom out especially for Mike Lucey.
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@rv1974 said:
Could you imagine 4000 rockets falling on Dublin or Dallas without adequate reaction?
No. Yet: the root of the problem aren't Hamas's rockets.
"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist." -Golda Meir, 1969
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done
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@rv1974 said:
some zoom out especially for Mike Lucey.
RV, not sure what you are getting at. Could you expand / clarify?
It looks like things may be down scaling in light of Sen Kerry's and others efforts. Hopefully it will continue in this direction.
There is alway hope!
Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies: Social media campaign goes viral (PHOTOS)
http://rt.com/news/175792-jews-arabs-refuse-enemies/ -
A tough topic that we know has routes of many kinds but probably majoring in the resettlement of European jews post ww2 which slewed the population mix. Hamas like other organisations have zero interest in a solution including a jewish state.
As a mixed ancestry human being I prefer to locate my ancestry in the area to pre modern religion times my surname comes from a practise of naming people for the work they were doing in this case water carriers. Apparently the group were engaged in carrying water from rivers/lakes/wells to markets and homes of wealthier residents. A bit of history which is context based only.
There was a contextual suggestion in one of the Tom Clancy books which piqued my interest in the use of independent paramilitary forces to reinforce a buffer zone but the suggestion is rather moot because the only people considered truly independent were the Swiss guards of the Vatican. That would suggest a third religious group could be considered a safe choice by the current antagonists which I cannot see working. Several of the studies on the dead sea scrolls and landscape of the pre and early Christian times suggests that the current location of what is sometimes called the holy land is wrong and that they should be looking at an area of the red sea, both sides get their followers although I reckon the gulf of aquaba would be just as objectionable to both sides of the conflict. Oil and water would appear to be the problem but even if land was granted to a new state, with homes and schools etc built by international donation, WHO would be the ones to move?
Apart from the night following day of rockets and suicide bombers on buses etc and air force bombe followed by ground force incursion is there a lesson they are willing to learn? Sooner or late one side has to blink, followed by the other. Perhaps if Hamas could have free access to the outside world and finance to rebuild the nation, they might be willing to stop their terror attacks.
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