Sign for Peace in Palestine UPDATE!
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@bhoritz said:
@mike lucey said:
Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
No. It is simpler than that. Freedom fighters target the state forces, terrorists target civilians.
So are you saying that Israeli's are terrorists as they are killing women and children?
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Breaking news on the BBC website:
"At least 15 people have been killed and more than 200 injured when a UN-run school used as a shelter in Gaza was shelled, the Gaza health ministry says.
Hundreds of Palestinians were in the school in Beit Hanoun, fleeing heavy fighting in the area.
It is the fourth time that a UN facility has been hit in Israel's offensive against Hamas militants."
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Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
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@solo said:
@bhoritz said:
@mike lucey said:
Freedom Fighters or Terrorists! It all depends on which side of the fence one is on.
No. It is simpler than that. Freedom fighters target the state forces, terrorists target civilians.
So are you saying that Israeli's are terrorists as they are killing women and children?
Targeting... (but I suppose you understood).
It is what you targets that makes the difference. War is war and you don't have control on all that happens.
But Hamas targets civilians in Israël without even bothering to fight soldiers and just trying to hurt as many civilians as they can.
IDF targets ennemies fighters hiding between civilians used as human shields.
If Israel had the same criminal ethos as Hamas, it wouldn't be just some hundreds deads.BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
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@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
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@solo said:
Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
So you think that Israelis should stop trying to protect their own women and childrens from Hamas missiles to avoid hurting the palestinians women and children used as human shields by palestinians? That's silly.
And to answer your question: the worst is using your own women and childrens as human shields instead of putting yourself in the way to protect them.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
Question: What is worse, using women and children as human shields or attacking targets knowing that women and children are being used as human shields?
So you think that Israelis should stop trying to protect their own women and childrens from Hamas missiles to avoid hurting the palestinians women and children used as human shields by palestinians? That's silly.
And to answer your question: the worst is using your own women and childrens as human shields instead of putting yourself in the way to protect them.
Your opinion is obviously biased as you are Jewish, had you not had a horse in this race I'm sure you would have a different opinion.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
BTW, if Hamas wants to stop the Israelis strikes they just have to accept the truce (refused twice) and stop hurling missiles at israëlis civilians. No missiles, no military operation.
And hopefully Israel will stop the blockade and the illegal settlements also right, so we agree?
Ah ok, it is not the dying childrens that bother you, what you want is not stopping a war but a full palestinian victory. Not the same, at all... You should be clearer when argumenting.
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
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@solo said:
Your opinion is obviously biased as you are Jewish, had you not had a horse in this race I'm sure you would have a different opinion.
And no, I am not jewish (are you arab?), I am not even a great admirer of Israël that seems to have drifted from the state of its founders into a semi theocratic state looking more and more like other states around it.
But war is war and terrorism is terrorism. No state can accept to have missiles targeting its civil population without using its military forces to stop that. And if you fire missiles at your neighbour's civilians, you can't complain too much when he retaliates. -
@solo said:
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
It certainly won't happen with the Hamas. Their official program is the full map in green and the destruction of Israel.
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@bhoritz said:
@solo said:
A clear Palestinian compromise would actually be pre 1967 borders, but hey that will never happen.
It certainly won't happen with the Hamas. Their official program is the full map in green and the destruction of Israel.
And here we can agree, Hamas is the cancer, but how do we remove the cancer without killing the patient?
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@solo said:
And here we can agree, Hamas is the cancer, but how do we remove the cancer without killing the patient?
I can certainly agree on that. And I have not the solution, if even one exists (which I greatly doubt).
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Done
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Israeli shell hits UN school in Gaza killing 15 people, including UN staff
http://www.thejournal.ie/un-school-gaza-israel-strike-1588233-Jul2014/
From UN reports, the Israelis forces had been advised about the UN school and even given geo locations! This obviously did not make any difference.Israel's actions are totally disproportionate and it looks that world opinion, excluding a certain sector in US, UK and EU government is turning a blind eye to what is happening ..... gradual genocide imo.
I imagine Israel feels it can safely continue along this path as Hamas has burned its bridges with its neighbours in the area and the rest of the world doesn't care.
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.... as regards the truce offer. Israel is not willing to allow free movement to from Palestine by land or sea. They want to retain the world's largest open prison.
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
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@mike lucey said:
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
Well, they've been around since 1987, so ... pretty much like it was before '87: bad. Hamas is a mere symptom, albeit a nasty one. IMHO.
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@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
Well, they've been around since 1987, so ... pretty much like it was before '87: bad. Hamas is a mere symptom, albeit a nasty one. IMHO.
The root to this mess goes back much further than 1987. I've located a maps diagram which covers the history of the situation here,
To my surprise and the surprise of many Irish citizens our country abstained on a UN vote 'UN Human Rights Council States vote on resolution establishing independent Commission of Inquiry for OPT & Gaza' Only the US voted against.
There is an interesting debate among ordinary Irish folks on the matter here, http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-eu-human-rights-council-1586964-Jul2014/
I keep thinking back to my point about the IRA, Northern Ireland, UK Government and Irish Government. If after 25 years of vicious situation that looked hopeless PEACE could be achieved thought talks, compromise on ALL sides, there should be hope for a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. In the case of the Northern Ireland peace the US played a major part but I do not think they can be the honest arbitrator in this case.
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Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet... -
@andyc said:
Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet...
I think the NI solution worked because there were some good arbitrators involved on all sides. The question is who is going to act as an honest arbitrator with no prejudice and trusted by all sides in this conflict ..... thats going to be difficult to find ........ someone of Nelson Mandela's calibre?
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