How can anyone possibly use layout
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No, I think you're right there. that's what i meant by quasi-associative. the dimensions are associative in their own respective environment. but not cross platform. SU dims are associative to SU linework and Layout dims are associative to Layout linework.
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@krisidious said:
No, I think you're right there. that's what i meant by quasi-associative. the dimensions are associative in their own respective environment. but not cross platform. SU dims are associative to SU linework and Layout dims are associative to Layout linework.
Sure would be nice if it did work like that though. Definitely adds an opportunity for errors in dimensioning if you happen to miss updating some after a Sketchup model adjustment.
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@bmike said:
i really wish LO would allow for transparent type (haven't been able to do it on my mac, unless i'm missing something...).
Hmmm? Does in windows! Have you turned off fill for the text box?
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One thing I'm noting about a lot of drawings people are showing, does nobody like white space!
The one biggest tip in presenting anything is: MAKE WHITE SPACE YOUR FRIEND
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@unknownuser said:
One thing I'm noting about a lot of drawings people are showing, does nobody like white space!
The one biggest tip in presenting anything is: MAKE WHITE SPACE YOUR FRIEND
Yeah, they must get printer ink for free
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@richard said:
One thing I'm noting about a lot of drawings people are showing, does nobody like white space!
The one biggest tip in presenting anything is: MAKE WHITE SPACE YOUR FRIEND
I've gone in the exact opposite direction. I pack every available inch of my drawings because the field I'm in (retail design and display) tends to generate endless revisions and I got tired of emptying my recycle bin multiple times during the day. No doubt, you're right - a well balanced page with ample breathing room around the visual elements is the most pleasing to the eye but my drawings tend to be looking more and more like mosaics with every component tightly fitted to one another. Thank god for custom viewport shapes in AutoCAD
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Richard. you are right about white space. It calms down the layout a lot. Sometimes a drawing can look like a total panic trying to communicate rather simple info.
Sonder, in the past I made many of those perspective details. But it does not work here in Holland. We need to measure on scale at the site from the drawing. Just to see if another option or detail would fit or not. We use a lot of A3 sized drawings on a scale of 1 to 1. Very easy to work with, especially for window frame details.
After many years of experience I have found out that providing the least amount of information in the most abstract form works best. And everything we put on paper for the contractor has been dimensioned to a fine level of detail.
And then along with that we also give a few sketchup illustrations. Just to get the idea of what we mean,
The drawings you show, however nice, would be far from effective in our projects. And a lot more time consuming than what we do now. We know since we did exactly what you do some years ago. But I must add that our projects are much and much more detailed and customized for a specific type of building.
And thanks for showing your great work, it does make us think again on how to use Layout & Sketchup.
Francois -
Hi Francois:
From the project you posted, it does not appear to be any more complex than anything we deal with. Your drawings, which are beautiful with many dimensions. However I see many things that do not require dimensions such as window sash, tube steel, framing members etc. These are static elements that are what they are. For instance an 11-7/8" LVL is 11-7/8" - no need for a dimension. Unless you folks are custom building every component, I do not see why perspective details don't work. Here the contractor's love them. I get far less questions in the field on very complex assemblies compared to the old days of 2d detailing. Our drawing sets are very detailed - typically 60- sheets or more in a set for a 3000 sf home. Those sets will contain 70-100 architectural details along with several sheets of structural details posted above.
Richard is correct, the dimensions in windows do adjust with changes in geometry, so they are associative. You can also dimension perspectives.
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@unknownuser said:
Hi Francois:
From the project you posted, it does not appear to be any more complex than anything we deal with. Your drawings, which are beautiful with many dimensions. However I see many things that do not require dimensions such as window sash, tube steel, framing members etc. These are static elements that are what they are. For instance an 11-7/8" LVL is 11-7/8" - no need for a dimension. Unless you folks are custom building every component, I do not see why perspective details don't work. Here the contractor's love them. I get far less questions in the field on very complex assemblies compared to the old days of 2d detailing. Our drawing sets are very detailed - typically 60- sheets or more in a set for a 3000 sf home. Those sets will contain 70-100 architectural details along with several sheets of structural details posted above.
Richard is correct, the dimensions in windows do adjust with changes in geometry, so they are associative. You can also dimension perspectives.
I have had similar reactions to 3d details. Certain items 'are what they are' and don't require dimensioning nor fully detailing them out... other thing certainly do require a very detailed drawing.
What I've found interesting is that builders 'get it' alot quicker with some perspective views - and some have even offered suggestions on how they would make an attachment, or which specific hardware they would rather use - once they see how things fit together.
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Agreed Mike - my details are always evolving from different contractor's input.
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We do add a lot of perspective views of details and parts of the building. We just don't want to spend the time to detail everything we need to put on paper in 3D. That's why we also use an application like Vectorworks.
I added another example of how complicated it is to completely depend on 3D work in Sketchup yet. In this example you see a few pages of the work done in 3D with Sketchup.
Please don't click the link of you are on a slow connection, this is a 18 Mb file.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cmhutqyfzbxuhz/FILLIEVRHOEVEN-EXAMPLE.pdfContractors here in Holland subcontract maybe over 80% of the work. They need contract like drawings with very strict dimensioned layouts. In most cases parts are made directly out of our drawings including windowframes. All windowframes are custom made exactly to our specifications and requirements for warranties. Imagine to have to do all this in 3D. Up to now we find ourselves trying to do the impossible in 3D. We want to work in 3d since we do understand the advantages. We haven't found the app or system yet to get it done the way it is required to do.
Something we don't want to do is highly detailed work in 3D as well and seperatly in 2D. Double work as nobody likes. Another thing is we don't want to get stranded in 3D slowing down our workflow or even worse, not getting it done at all and redoing stuff in 2D later on.
I hope the near future brings a single 3D workflow getting the right kind of abstraction like we have in 2D that is easy to work with and understood at the building site. You simply need to be able to meausure dimensions from paper or on an iPad to be able to improvise on site if needed. With an iPad this could be done in 3D but without it I don't now how you could from a perspective view.
Francois
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That's a nice set Francois but those 3D raster images are pretty nasty... hard to believe they don't have a vector export for that software.
I'm still not seeing anything you can't do in SU/LO. they have recently added hidden background edges to Layout, however they don't stick around in vector or vector/raster hybrid.
The biggest limits I find in layout is the connection to BIM type info that others have like Autocad and such. Like others have said here, I've moved further and further away from over detailing. My sections are actually quite simplistic, I don't do dimensions on them or even callouts very often. And no one ever questions it... I've found that professionals in the respective fields usually know what they're doing and what's going on.
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I agree with Kristoff. If anything, some of those complex details would be more clear in 3d. I've found this to be especially be true for flashing details.
I do understand the dilemma though, of trying to convert all your 2d work to 3d. That was still probably the biggest hurdle for me. That's all in the past now though and I have no intentions of returning to 2d detailing.
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@krisidious said:
I'm still not seeing anything you can't do in SU/LO.
The biggest limits I find in layout is the connection to BIM type info that others have like Autocad and such.
I think the first point of not seeing anything that can't be done in LO is countered by the second!
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Just because you could do it doesn't make it practical.
As for the BIM. Eh. Wouldn't effect my work enough any time soon to make it decisive. I can wait... the parametric effects are attractive though.
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Was his drawing using BIM info for notes and such? I didn't know if it was or not.
and no, the capability to do something does not make it practical.
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@krisidious said:
Was his drawing using BIM info for notes and such? I didn't know if it was or not.
and no, the capability to do something does not make it practical.
I dunno. You mentioned BIM. I am just adding debate fodder. I'd like to try to use SU-LO more myself.
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Hi Kristoff,
don't know what you mean by raster images and vector software. The 3D's are made in Sketchup. Just added there to give some idea.
We sometimes receive 3D dwg files made by the subcontractor for the steel work. We just import them in Sketchup on top of our 3D models in different colors. That's how we check for crashes between construction elements. Basically that is some form of BIM.
In Holland the way we work is not really BIM. The way contracts are set makes it basically impossible to do actual BIM. In other words, to have a true information model shared by all parties involved is not possible. Other parties are involved to late in the process to get them all working on the same model. And then there is the question of liability. Nobody wants to share anything unless properly paid for and without any guarantees on the work delivered. That will change over time as well but for the next few decade's I don't see that happen.I understand everything could be done in Layout. But I have never seen anybody do what we need to do in Layout, neither have I been able to get it done myself. I am afraid that Sonder in Holland would have to go back to either draw in 2D or have to buy Revit. I know a few offices who do all in Revit. They are now either bankrupt or admit the work takes over 5 times more effort. Sometimes when a project actually pushes through they get a bit of profit from all the work involved to sweat the details and I mean all the details done in 3D. Imagine the average office here sees only 1 out 10 project built. The rest is all cancelled sooner or later hoping as much of the work will be paid for.
Its not a question if 3D will be the future. I have no doubt that within 5 to 10 years 2D drafting is done for. Student will even not know how to do 2D. But I am not convinced with what I see here however well done, that what we need to do can be done with Layout. Vectorworks also has a workflow in 3D with all sorts of BIM functionality. It works all right if you spend enough time.
I was at a lecture on BIM were a middle sized Dutch office showed their work done for BIM projects all in 3D and rather detailed in Vectorworks. Half of what I saw I could have done easily in Sketchup and maybe Layout. Last I heard of them a month ago was that they too have gone bankrupt, 14 people now unemployed. A client we worked for, one of the biggest firms here (160 architects) was very much into Revit. Last year they went bankrupt. The list goes on and the latest market research showed almost 70% of architects (since 2008) in Holland are now unemployed.This is how it is these days here. Its stalls progress a little I would say. One or two projects that somehow does not work out so well means the end of it, not for us but likely for all offices here in the Netherlands.
Apart from OMA (Koolhaas) of course. I think they do their design work with hand sketches and have the technical work done externally. Also a development I see happening. The total separation between design and engineering. Webdesign is already like that. Top designers work in Photoshop or Indesign while a small team of IT specialists program the html code. Compare that to architects working in Rhino, Z-brush, Modo and so on while a team of engineers are doing the Revit models after the design work has been done.
Francois -
As far as the Raster I was speaking of specifically and only page 12. I thought it was so pixilated because you had mentioned earlier that rhino or visualarq didn't have 3D vector lines.
2D is much faster... I face that a lot in my business. I could be drawing my houses quicker in 2D and saving time and money. However, I really enjoy doing the 3D and frankly I'm not willing to give up that work/enjoyment level. I really hate drafting... Ok, maybe I don't hate it, but I don't love it.
Some might think I'm selling or defending SU/Layout, actually what I'm doing is defending my choice of software as being the most efficient and cost effective method of accomplishing my goal. To admit that some other program does it better would mean I had wasted a lot of time... Deep inside I want to know if there is something better, but I'm afraid to find out there is.
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@krisidious said:
As far as the Raster I was speaking of specifically and only page 12. I thought it was so pixilated because you had mentioned earlier that rhino or visualarq didn't have 3D vector lines.
I think that comment may have come from me and therefore I should clarify a bit: Rhino is a very complex program and has a number of different output functions (wireframe, shaded, rendered, technical, pen, etc.) most of which you can customize - rather like Styles in SketchUp. Some of the output variations are vector based. The point that I was making is that there is not an easy way to output vector perspective with dimensions. If you do a 4 viewport layout (top, side, detail, perspective) you'll see the dimensions in the orthographic views but not in the perspective view. There are workarounds for this but they are just that - workarounds, which I translate as: "obstacles to a clean, fast workflow."
Furthermore, Rhino lacks the hybrid mode of vector / raster that Layout has (which is the one function that frequently brings me back to LO). Rhino, like many of the big 3D modeling applications, is putting a lot of effort into a built in rendering engine that works inside of the main application. But going forward, I find myself having less and less interest in photo realistic work. The various graphical styles that are present in this thread are, to my eye, more interesting and more useful to the complex process of transitioning from design to fabrication than any attempt to mimic photography could be. Fortunately, Rhino is also investing a lot of energy in expanding the NPR possibilities in the program.
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