Beware - Craiglist Freelancer wanted ...to work for nothing.
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I had the misfortune to waste my time responding to this ad:
http://charlottesville.craigslist.org/egr/3502877264.html
@unknownuser said:
Designer/Drafter (Freelance)
Looking for a designer/drafter who is very capable in all aspect of residential design from conceptual design phase through construction document phase. Must be a fast drafter and have knowledge of the structural and construction aspects of building . Knowladge of commercial design is a plus. Must also be capable of designing floor plans and elevations. Please respond with samples of construction documents you have drafted and your salary expectations.And received the following response, which was also sent to 46 other freelancers (I'm sure this was just one email of many - since gmail doesn't allow more than 50 recipients)
@unknownuser said:
Thank you for submitting you resume and construction document samples. We received numerous applications for the job. In order to find the right person for the job we decided to ask applicants to do sample projects. We will evaluate the way the samples are done and hire the two applicants that do the best work. We have attached two sample projects. The first project is a proposed addition for a synagogue. I would like you to design a new front elevation. The front elevation has two sides since it is a corner property. The front is labeled "new foyer" and "existing foyer". I attached photos of the existing synagogue which is one floor on a slab. We are adding approximately 40' to the existing first floor and building a second floor above the existing and new first floor. For the elevation I would like to have a nice building with vinyl siding and an impressive entrance way (some sort of portico maybe). I attached some synagogue samples that were done with vinyl siding.I attached samples of interiors of the main synagogues so u can see the window sizes that are typically used. The windows that are currently on the plans show where the windows will be but not the type or sizes. The woman's section will be on a gallery open to a 2 floor high men's section. I also attached some work samples to show the quality we expect of the final plans and the way we design our structure.
The second project is a single family house.(disregard the structure in the plan its not 100% accurate) I would like to see a foundation structural layout. I attached all the floor plans . The second floor ceiling and roof will consist of storage attic trusses that will be supported by the exterior walls
Our firm has many projects. We are looking for someone who is precise, can follow detailed instructions and is a fast drafter. Since we have many jobs the applicant needs to be dedicated and able to work fast.To give you a sample of our pricing we would pay $400 to complete the construction documents for single family home (which already has a preliminary elevation) and $750 to complete the construction documents for the synagogue addition.
Please review the attached documents. If you feel that you are able to handle the work then draw up the samples and email them back to me. In your email please tell me how many hours it took you to complete each sample. I would also like to know which program you used to do the design.Thank You
Muti Feldbrand
Brezinski + Architecture ConsultingAfter doing a quick search, I found the same post in the following other areas:
http://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/egr/3501654064.html
http://shreveport.craigslist.org/egr/3501787821.html
http://albany.craigslist.org/egr/3502675343.html
http://delaware.craigslist.org/egr/3501118489.html
http://capecod.craigslist.org/egr/3501819420.htmlI'm sure there are many more, point is... before you waste too much time responding to a craigslist ad, make sure it can be traced locally and there's enough detail (and hopefully location specific info) in the posting to be legitimate.
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Looks to be a great way to get some free design ideas
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Andy,did they attach any images of the synagogue, maybe a render or photo-match? This has me connecting some dots of familiarity from a job last year.
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unbelievable...
and i think there are some stupid idiots who have already done it!
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Thanks for the PM Andy.
This is not the same project as the one I was screwed on last year. I have now in the last three years been screwed twice doing a synagogue for two different clients, one in New Jersey and the other in Chicago. So now I refuse any work involving synagogues from here forward.
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Based in google search, there seems to be at-least 4000 similar proposals. Did search "Looking for a designer/drafter who is very capable in all aspect of residential design from conceptual design phase through construction document phase"
Also a person "Muti Feldbrand" seams to search help for various design issues here and there.
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@notareal said:
Based in google search, there seems to be at-least 4000 similar proposals. Did search "Looking for a designer/drafter who is very capable in all aspect of residential design from conceptual design phase through construction document phase"
Also a person "Muti Feldbrand" seams to search help for various design issues here and there.
Wow, that's a larger scope than I imagined. Wonder what's the hook. I guess it's just finding people to do free work. Oh well, word of caution to freelancers...
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Seems insane on so many levels. In the time to find a drafter by this process this guy could have just done the plans if he were legit. Probably some nut who is not qualified trying to be a middleman and rake the profits. Can one get something at all usable for $400...?
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On a different scale, I've had a few clients - mostly residential - who have likely watched TV shows like HGTV's Design Star and feel that I should "compete" against other architects/designers/homebuilders for their business. Understandably, we all compete. But these people were asking for fully fleshed out designs from each "contender" and would supposedly "award" the project to the winner. Obviously, coming up with the design concept is the grand portion of such a project. I'm more than willing to go over past samples of work and to discuss the design process with them, but I'm not going to "compete" for a project under those terms. I'd fully expect the client to take the "winning design" to a drafting service or just turn it over to a contractor for construction.
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Any preliminary design work that I may do for a potential client ALWAYS carries a copyright notice. If they decide to take my prelim work somewhere else for use it's a clear violation.
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@mtnarch said:
Any preliminary design work that I may do for a potential client ALWAYS carries a copyright notice. If they decide to take my prelim work somewhere else for use it's a clear violation.
meh.. those notices don't mean anything..
i mean, have you actually registered the drawings etc? probably not..
regardless, it's yours.. legally, it's yours..
it doesn't matter if you put "hey, i this is my intellectual property" on there or not.. and often, just uglies up the design.. (imo)
[edit].. well, don't get me wrong.. those types of notices can help prevent a misguided client from ,say, thinking they now own the drawing.. i.e.- a lot of people simply don't realize that..
but if you get into a legal situation further down the road, you telling the judge "oh. and i put a
on the drawing too" isn't going to contribute to the outcome.. the courts will deal with it in the same way regardless of whether or not you put a notice on there..(similar to something like trespassing.. i mean, either a person is trespassing or not.. it doesn't matter if you have a 'posted: no trespassing' sign up )
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Actually Jeff, Don't underestimate this law. I have invoked it and it has worked.
Since 1989 in the US, (slightly different in Canada), you don't actually have to even mark the "work" in question with a copyright symbol, to have intellectual rights over it, and you do not have to register it.
In our case we found out a client intended to duplicate a residence we designed for him.
All we did was send him documentation on what our rights are under the Intellectual Properties/ copyrights legislation, and informed him that either we would negotiate a fee for the use of our work, or we would take action.
And in this case we negotiated a fee, and moved on.
Does that mean people can't and won't steal your work and use it, no, and since there is a kind of self policing required, you have to be aware that the infringement is, has, or will take place.
But I encourage people to, if you are aware of wrongful use of your work, to act on this, by sending the parties that intend to use your work information on what your rights are as the creator of the work.
Oh, and this is an international convention signed onto by many countries.
At least know your rights.
Here is some info: http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/iprm/ -
@pbacot said:
Seems insane on so many levels. In the time to find a drafter by this process this guy could have just done the plans if he were legit. Probably some nut who is not qualified trying to be a middleman and rake the profits. Can one get something at all usable for $400...?
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking - it seems like a lot of trouble to invite contact from thousands of freelancers for some bargain basement design. Though he did send some residential vinyl-sided horse$hit images, so it may well be something someone could do for a couple hundred bucks. But then contact maybe ten, twenty people - and sure as hell don't copy them all on one email...
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@dale said:
Actually Jeff, Don't underestimate this law. I have invoked it and it has worked.
Since 1989 in the US, (slightly different in Canada), you don't actually have to even mark the "work" in question with a copyright symbol, to have intellectual rights over it, and you do not have to register it.right Dale.. that's what i'm saying as well.. (i was saying that placing a 'notice' on the drawing is useless as you already legally own the works etc..)
(but hey, I'm great at miscommunicating.. sorry about that
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@solo said:
.... now I refuse any work involving synagogues from here forward.
Pete, "Would Be An Ecumenical Matter"?
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Classic, forgot abou that one Mike!
I just bought the DVD boxset over the weekend from the HMV liquidation, only a tenna. Replaced the old VHS's.
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Maybe a small software could be designed that you would incorporate into your drawings and, if a client refused to pay, you could send off an email which, once opened, would search the client's computer for your files and delete them.
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@arail1 said:
Maybe a small software could be designed that you would incorporate into your drawings and, if a client refused to pay, you could send off an email which, once opened, would search the client's computer for your files and delete them.
surely that would be illegal, no?
(as in.. super illegal?)
[edit- or.. i don't really know.. i guess youre saying something like a repo bot that reclaims files instead of things like cars]
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@arail1 said:
Maybe a small software could be designed that you would incorporate into your drawings and, if a client refused to pay, you could send off an email which, once opened, would search the client's computer for your files and delete them.
Software such as this does already exist although its quite expensive andI am only aware of massive companies using it (Adobe for example).
I got stung by a scam like this when I was about 14. Got asked to do a small job as a trial and then it tured out it was the actual job, they stole it and I never got paid.
EDIT: Software doesn't actually delete files it just sends a report back to your machine and lets you know it has been opened giving you the machine address and IP etc. Thats when you call your lawyers!
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