Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
So ... we're backing up the claims made in the Bible by using ... the Bible? This has been an interesting discussion, but it seems we've entered the realm of the absurd now. I'm out.
Let us assume that there is no Bible, because many countries do not have it ...!
Let us suppose that we have no consciousness, because many persons โviolateโ itโฆ!โฆBut the NATURE remains, and it says a lotโฆ
Since the creation of the world, Godโs invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that all of us are without excuse, on our attitude regarding the rejection of the Creatorโฆ -
@box said:
You are free to insult me, I have made my points clearly, I have not insulted your intelligence and I have bowed out of the discussion by agreeing to disagree.
Sorry Box, I'm a bit snarky today and that probably was said in frustration. I kind of felt like you bait and switched me a bit there by asking the question and referring to your knowledge of the historical method and then summarily rejecting a historical text after I'd put together what I feel was a thought out and reasoned response.
-Brodie
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grumbles
Post removed. I was in a foul mood last night, apparently.
grumbles
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@idahoj said:
@unknownuser said:
To my mind, that's a negation of faith's very core: the irrational act of actively embracing a concept one, by definition, cannot proof to be true or even completely understand.
An excerpt from an article I've read here: http://www.zeitun-eg.org/thomas.htm
@unknownuser said:
"What's less easy to understand is the thought-out, rational pursuit of God against one's better judgement. Loving God and seeking to serve God against one's interests, plus the sheer difficulty of the attempt to love one's neighbor, is, it seems to me, the best proof of religion."
or just plain faith, IMO.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
Pretty well sums it up for me.
Cheers.
The whole idea off believing is not seeing it completely. If you see it, you don't have to believe. So, the intellect is not the way, and however smart U are, God is out of the range of your mind by definition. But, thanks to God, Human is much more than intellect! You have to consider this when showing evidences that there is no God, using only one small percent of our existance - the material one.
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@srx said:
But, thanks to God, Human is much more than intellect! You have to consider this when showing evidences that there is no God, using only one small percent of our existance - the material one.
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I think faith and science can actually meet...in fact they seem to exist perfectly satisfactorily in the clergyman/physicist in the link posted by Solo. I know quite a few other people like him; although it's a feat I have never, personally, been able to pull off. I know very many more who accept both sides because they simply don't allow themselves to push too hard at addressing the differences between the scientific account and the Biblical one...a kind of uneasy truce.
I doubt that there is actually much operational difference between those of quiet faith and those with none that both embrace the discoveries currently being made at the cutting edges of science. Both revel in the previously unimagined wonder and complexity of what we call reality; yet both draw somewhat different conclusions from it. Having been on both sides, it's really no biggee...as long as you believe that whichever stance you take helps you to be a better person.
It's a purely personal take on it, but I believe that those who feel their faith being threatened by the advance of science, really ought to re-examine the roots of that faith...because if that faith can't square up to reality, then there's something wrong with it.
As for those that go even further and attempt to denounce science and either ignore or rewrite the evidence currently emerging because it doesn't fit with their theology...Creationists by any other name...or fundamentalist Muslims...they are deluded. There is no other way of putting it.
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@alan fraser said:
It's a purely personal take on it, but I believe that those who feel their faith being threatened by the advance of science, really ought to re-examine the roots of that faith...because if that faith can't square up to reality, then there's something wrong with it.
@alan fraser said:
As for those that go even further and attempt to denounce science and either ignore or rewrite the evidence currently emerging because it doesn't fit with their theology...Creationists by any other name...or fundamentalist Muslims...they are deluded. There is no other way of putting it.
in Islam, people are told and taught to seek knowledge, hikmah (philosophy) and develop science. thus there were Al Jabbar, Al Kindi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rusy, etc. before the people of mysticism era came along.
for those who claim the teaching was otherwise, they obviously stand and move against God and His Messengers themselves.Cheers.
[ed] God creates everything for human and everything else side by side. and He certainly would like to have human know what they are and how to utilise them for better live and living. they need knowlegde, philosophy of them, and build science based on them.
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@unknownuser said:
It's illogical, Brodie, only because of your approach. You are still insisting on standing reason on its head.
I've given a very specific example of my approach and thus far the response has amounted to 'it's in the Bible therefore it's not true.' There has been no refutation of my claim that this statement in 1 Corinthians is an early Christian creed based on historical means.
@unknownuser said:
You say "It's illogical to NOT believe something simply because it happens to be in a book you disagree with."
That's not the case at all, in fact it's entirely the wrong way round. Those disputing with you don't start from the position of disagreeing with the Bible and thereby disbelieving what is in it. According to historical method, they will be cogniscent of it, but remain duly sceptical until such time as it can be corroborated from another source.
I think you're missing the point. There aremultiple sources that corroborate that Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected. My point is that this is the earliestsource which points to this fact. There's can't be multiple earliest sources.
-Brodie
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Brodie wrote:
It's illogical to NOT believe something simply because it happens to be in a book you disagree with.So you believe in Middle Earth?
No. But if you'd like to make a historical case for its existence, I'm all ears. I've never heard the case that Tolkien thought he was writing anything other than fiction.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
I think you're missing the point. There are multiple sources that corroborate that Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected.
Umh! yes, you could simply ask one...given that it's in the Creed.
That's all settled then. The Bible is confirmed as historically accurate. Therefore Genesis is true. Therefore God created the universe. End of thread.
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Amen.
(there's no middle earth?)
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@alan fraser said:
@unknownuser said:
I think you're missing the point. There are multiple sources that corroborate that Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected.
Umh! yes, you could simply ask one...given that it's in the Creed.
That's all settled then. The Bible is confirmed as historically accurate. Therefore Genesis is true. Therefore God created the universe. End of thread.If I might resurrect this thread [...ooo, see what I did there? clever]...
That wasn't my aim from one small argument of course. I was simply trying to establish that the claimof Jesus' resurrection, at least, began very early on. This counters the common argument that such a 'myth' developed many years later like a game of telephone. Alone, the argument certainly by no means proves that the event being claimed actually happened, but it seemed like an appropriate place to start.
I didn't anticipate so much falderal on the matter, however. I guess there's no use continuing on to any other points though as everyone seems to have given up on me.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
This counters the common argument that such a 'myth' developed many years later like a game of telephone.
Not really. Perceptions can change within hours of witnessing an event and it doesn't take long for that perception to change to such a degree that it bears little resemblance to the reality of the original events - this is a problem with all eye-witness testimony and not limited to the supposed eye-witness accounts recalled many years after the fact in the Gospels.
Add to that the agenda of the Gospel authors and you can't objectively accept the events of the resurrection without any non-biblical documentary evidence (something which is tellingly in short supply).
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@hieru said:
Not really. Perceptions can change within hours of witnessing an event and it doesn't take long for that perception to change to such a degree that it bears little resemblance to the reality of the original events - this is a problem with all eye-witness testimony and not limited to the supposed eye-witness accounts recalled many years after the fact in the Gospels.
It's one thing for someone to remember a shorter person as being tall or a red car as being green. It's quite another to mis-remember a dead man as having appeared to you. Eye-witness testimony isn't infallible and the historical method doesn't assume so. But within the historical method we have documents reporting on events sometimes hundreds of years prior to their written recording that we accept as credible accounts. It would seem that by your standards we couldn't trust even first hand eye witness accounts which would essentially make any historical study nonsensical. That's why I'm trying to adhere to accepted historical method. These aren't myrules for determining historical accuracy, these are methods developed by historians and scholars.
@unknownuser said:
Add to that the agenda of the Gospel authors and you can't objectively accept the events of the resurrection without any non-biblical documentary evidence (something which is tellingly in short supply).
In ancient times EVERYONE writing a historical record had a bias. People didn't do these things for fun. They were difficult and often costly. The historical method takes these factors into account by looking at what there biases were (not ifthey were but what) and factoring that into the equation. Josephus for example was a Jewish historian employed by Rome and yet we regard the majority of his accounts as quite reliable. Here, in 1 Corinthians we might ask what people had to gain by claiming Jesus to have been resurrected?
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
It's one thing for someone to remember a shorter person as being tall or a red car as being green. It's quite another to misremember a dead man as having appeared to you.
You would be surprised at the way people can drastically misperceive what they have seen. Even large groups of people can mistakenly believe that they have seen some kind of exotic phenomena.
Obviously the historical method takes account for this fallibility, but along with the problem of bias it's also the reason that historians prefer not to draw conclusions based on a single source - especially when we are dealing with incredible claims - and will seek out corroborating evidence from various sources or even other fields. When it comes to the resurrection there is no evidence outside of the NT and our empirical understanding of medicine tells us that it's impossible for someone to come back to life after clinical death.
Applying the historical method we can't lend claims regarding the resurrection any more weight than say the claims of the Heaven's Gate cult.
@unknownuser said:
Here, in 1 Corinthians we might ask what people had to gain by claiming Jesus to have been resurrected?
Every cult needs a hook to draw the punters in.
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@hieru said:
When it comes to the resurrection there is no evidence outside of the NT
Resurrection of Jesus Christ was an act so OBVIOUS, that not only his disciples, but millions of martyrs were ready to give their life for Him, knowing that they will be resurrected also...!
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@hieru said:
You would be surprised at the way people can drastically misperceive what they have seen. Even large groups of people can mistakenly believe that they have seen some kind of exotic phenomena.
Is that your position as to what happened here?
@unknownuser said:
Obviously the historical method takes account for this fallibility, but along with the problem of bias it's also the reason that historians prefer not to draw conclusions based on a single source - especially when we are dealing with incredible claims - and will seek out corroborating evidence from various sources or even other fields. When it comes to the resurrection there is no evidence outside of the NT and our empirical understanding of medicine tells us that it's impossible for someone to come back to life after clinical death.
You're jumping the gun again. I'm not going right for the jugular to prove Jesus' resurrection based on this one point. The only thing I'm trying to get some sort of concession on is that Christians were making the claimvery early on that Jesus had raised from the dead, therefore this isn't legendary material.
The Bible isn't a single source. It's a collection of multiple sources, various letters, histories, and such. To count it as a single source would be historically inaccurate.
It's valid to ask why we don't have extra-biblical sources attesting to a particular event but that doesn't necessarily discount the event occurred from a historical perspective.
Applying the historical method we can't lend claims regarding the resurrection any more weight than say the claims of the Heaven's Gate cult.
Medical science shows us that a dead person doesn't come on account of natural or any known man-made cause (at least not after a few days of being dead). But this isn't the claim (people knew even back then that dead people don't come back). The claim is that Jesus was resurrected by supernaturalcauses, for which science has nothing to say. If I keeled over one day and came back a few days later that would be unfathomable and unexplainable. But that's because there's no context. Jesus, however, insinuated and hinted several times that this would happen, then it did. I don't expect you to take all that at face value but that's the price to pay for getting ahead of ourselves I guess.
@unknownuser said:
Every cult needs a hook to draw the punters in.
That doesn't explain anything. The Jews at that time weren't waiting for an a-political resurrected messiah. They were looking for a political leader that would overthrow the Roman oppressors. That's why in every other case after the 'would-be' messiah was put to death, the followers gave up hope that he had been the messiah. Even if inventing the story made sense from a historical perspective, by all accounts the early leaders did nothing but suffer for their convictions and ultimately died on account of them. Again, there's no motivation.
-Brodie
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[flash=600,400:14vh09ff]http://www.youtube.com/v/2W1FWNSn83U?version=3&hl=cs_CZ&[/flash:14vh09ff]
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@unknownuser said:
Is that your position as to what happened here?
I don't think it's a complete solution, but I think it's an important factor that has to be considered. We could be dealing with the testimony of people who weren't initiated into the inner mysteries of the cult and misperceived a non-literal resurrection rite. There are lots of mundane explanations that are more credible than the paranormal explanation.
@unknownuser said:
The only thing I'm trying to get some sort of concession on is that Christians were making the claimvery early on that Jesus had raised from the dead, therefore this isn't legendary material.
That's a non sequitur. Obviously early Christians made claims regarding the resurrection (some seem more literal than others), but I take issue with the notion that these claims are made very early - the supposed eye witness accounts are said to have been recorded a considerable time after they occurred and are subject to human error and deliberate fabrication, so it doesn't follow that we aren't dealing with 'legend'.
@unknownuser said:
The Bible isn't a single source.
I wasn't referring to the Bible but Christianity itself i.e. a single authority.
@unknownuser said:
It's valid to ask why we don't have extra-biblical sources attesting to a particular event but that doesn't necessarily discount the event occurred from a historical perspective.
It does however speak to the strength of the evidence.
@unknownuser said:
The claim is that Jesus was resurrected by supernaturalcauses, for which science has nothing to say.
That's begging the question as it presupposes the existence of the supernatural. There has never been objective evidence for any supernatural phenomena and if the supernatural isn't subject to empirical study then we simply couldn't be aware of it anyway - it would have no means of interacting with reality or being perceived by anything that is limited by the materialistic laws of the universe (which includes all of our senses).
@unknownuser said:
That doesn't explain anything. The Jews at that time weren't waiting for an a-political resurrected messiah. They were looking for a political leader that would overthrow the Roman oppressors. That's why in every other case after the 'would-be' messiah was put to death, the followers gave up hope that he had been the messiah. Even if inventing the story made sense from a historical perspective, by all accounts the early leaders did nothing but suffer for their convictions and ultimately died on account of them. Again, there's no motivation.
That's what I meant by a hook. The early Christians set themselves apart by offering something other cults did not. It may seem counter-intuitive but showing how much you are willing to sacrifice for a cause can be a good draw for would-be converts. The fact that you think it speaks to the credibility of the resurrection shows how psychologically powerful that can be. Which brings me back to Heaven's Gate. Should we also consider their beliefs to be credible just because they were willing to die for them?
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@hieru said:
I don't think it's a complete solution, but I think it's an important factor that has to be considered. We could be dealing with the testimony of people who weren't initiated into the inner mysteries of the cult and misperceived a non-literal resurrection rite. There are lots of mundane explanations that are more credible than the paranormal explanation.
What your saying is contrary to the historical documentation we have though. Matthew and John were both apostles who followed Jesus daily for 3 years. Likewise, the creed Paul is quoting says that people actually sawJesus after his resurrection and even names names of people who were alive at the time. These aren't the non-initiated.
Furthermore, a non-literal resurrection doesn't even make sense within the Jewish frame of reference. Beyond that this is part of the reason for showing the early date of the creed as it is extremely literal in it's tone.
@unknownuser said:
That's a non sequitur. Obviously early Christians made claims regarding the resurrection (some seem more literal than others), but I take issue with the notion that these claims are made very early - the supposed eye witness accounts are said to have been recorded a considerable time after they occurred and are subject to human error and deliberate fabrication, so it doesn't follow that we aren't dealing with 'legend'.
Isn't this the exact issue we've been discussing? I provided historical evidence that this creed dates to within just a few years of Jesus' death (some argue even sooner). If you want to 'take issue' with it that's fine, but it's no good to simply not like it, of course. What's required is some sort of counter-evidence that suggests my 'early date' conclusion is incorrect.
@unknownuser said:
I wasn't referring to the Bible but Christianity itself i.e. a single authority.
Would we expect to find a source who'd witnessed Jesus' resurrection and didn't convert to Christianity?
@unknownuser said:
That's begging the question as it presupposes the existence of the supernatural. There has never been objective evidence for any supernatural phenomena and if the supernatural isn't subject to empirical study then we simply couldn't be aware of it anyway - it would have no means of interacting with reality or being perceived by anything that is limited by the materialistic laws of the universe (which includes all of our senses).
It's not begging the question as I'm not presupposing the supernatural. I'm saying that IF Jesus was resurrected in the way it's claimed, then it was a supernatural event. Since early Christians weren't claiming that Jesus naturallyraised from the dead then what naturallyoccurs is irrelevant.
@unknownuser said:
That's what I meant by a hook. The early Christians set themselves apart by offering something other cults did not. It may seem counter-intuitive but showing how much you are willing to sacrifice for a cause can be a good draw for would-be converts. The fact that you think it speaks to the credibility of the resurrection shows how psychologically powerful that can be. Which brings me back to Heaven's Gate. Should we also consider their beliefs to be credible just because they were willing to die for them?
Many people have been willing to die for a cultic or religious belief. Heaven's gate, Islam, Christianity, etc. The difference in this case, though, is that the apostles were dying for something they claimed to have physically seen with their own eyes. That's quite different from dying for what someone else claims to have seen or what they claim to be true.
Most cults are easily dismissed in the sense that, if the one guy at the top is just bat crap crazy, the whole cult is doomed. Likewise, if the guy at the top is making a bunch of money or getting a lot of power out of the deal, we can be highly suspicious of his motives. But history shows us that Christianity's earliest for was a group of men claiming to have seen a resurrected Jesus which they then spent the rest of their lives proclaiming to other people despite persecution, hardship, and eventually execution. Combined with many other details, this fits the model of no other cult I'm aware of.
-Brodie
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