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    Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED

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    • S Offline
      Starling75
      last edited by

      [flash=600,400:1o5oh42g]http://www.youtube.com/v/aJP-1fNSd38?version=3&amp[/flash:1o5oh42g]

      http://youtu.be/_eC14GonZnU

      In the beginning was the 110 .. or 42?, and the 110 .. or 42? was with the 110 .. or 42?, and the 110 .. or 42? was the 110 .. or 42?.

      http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/ElementaryCARule110_1000.gif

      http://www.starlingarch.cz

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      • Alan FraserA Offline
        Alan Fraser
        last edited by

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical. Nor is it the rationalists making the unsubstantiated claims. I'll believe that the sun traverses the sky every day because of planetary motion (because that can be proven) until somebody can show me that it's actually Amun Ra giving it a lift in his chariot.

        If a theist cannot even demonstrate something as basic as the existence his god, then it follows no one in earlier times was able to do so either...or such evidence would be to hand. It then follows perfectly logically that all the theology that has grown up around that god is equally insubstantial...and all the catch-phrases, sophistry, rhetoric and running around it circular arguments isn't going to change that.

        What earlier knowledge of a true god? This is the biggest con-trick of all...that ancient peoples somehow had this secret, profound knowledge that somehow has been lost to us. No they didn't; it's straight out of some nonsense by Erik von Daniken. They were just like us, only more ignorant and superstitious...and some of them were deluded if not mentally ill. Let's face it, what do you think would happen today to someone who came within an inch of disembowelling his son because some voices in his head told him to do so?

        3D Figures
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        • S Offline
          Starling75
          last edited by

          [flash=600,400:2jpteo0h]http://www.youtube.com/v/J4MUpBiKtBc?version=3&amp[/flash:2jpteo0h]

          http://www.starlingarch.cz

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          • Alan FraserA Offline
            Alan Fraser
            last edited by

            Douglas Adams ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

            3D Figures
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            • HieruH Offline
              Hieru
              last edited by

              @alan fraser said:

              Douglas Adams ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

              ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

              www.davidhier.co.uk

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              • brodieB Offline
                brodie
                last edited by

                @alan fraser said:

                Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.

                Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.

                So what would you accept as "extraordinary proof" for a historical event such as the resurrection which can't be tested in a lab or repeated?

                @unknownuser said:

                Nor is it the rationalists making the unsubstantiated claims. I'll believe that the sun traverses the sky every day because of planetary motion (because that can be proven) until somebody can show me that it's actually Amun Ra giving it a lift in his chariot.

                Right. So we don't simply presuppose that the 'default' position is true (whether the default is God or no God). We go where the evidence takes us - at least that's my position.

                @unknownuser said:

                If a theist cannot even demonstrate something as basic as the existence his god, then it follows no one in earlier times was able to do so either...

                No, that absolutely does notfollow. Certainly if Jesus rose from the dead he proved the existence of God in a way I no longer can. I can give historical evidence of the event but I can't reproduce it for you.

                We can't even say with complete certainty that we have a total record of all the philosophical arguments that have been made. I'm not trying to argue that some fool proof method was established and lost, but it's not logical to say that because an argument doesn't exist now, no one has ever made an argument that would fit your criteria. The 'secret' to making concrete was lost of hundreds of years after the Romans had invented it.

                Nor, do I think it's even logical for you to assume that no argument even currently exits which adequately explains the existence of God. Certainly for many people those arguments do exist. Anthony Flew, for example was greatly swayed by the teleological argument. So perhaps you haven't heard all of the arguments. Or even if you have, perhaps the problem isn't with the arguments but rather with you - perhaps your standards are unreasonably high.

                @unknownuser said:

                What earlier knowledge of a true god? This is the biggest con-trick of all...that ancient peoples somehow had this secret, profound knowledge that somehow has been lost to us. No they didn't; it's straight out of some nonsense by Erik von Daniken. They were just like us, only more ignorant and superstitious...and some of them were deluded if not mentally ill. Let's face it, what do you think would happen today to someone who came within an inch of disembowelling his son because some voices in his head told him to do so?

                As I mentioned in the case of concrete, it's not unheard of for knowledge to 'disappear.' Likewise, as cultures change and develop it's possible for their collective knowledge and stories to be adapted over time - particularly if we're talking about thousands of years, many cultural splits, and no survivable written language. You seem to have a very low view of ancient people which I don't hold to.

                -Brodie

                steelblue http://www.steelbluellc.com

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                • StinkieS Offline
                  Stinkie
                  last edited by

                  @unknownuser said:

                  @alan fraser said:

                  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.

                  Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.

                  No, Brodie, sorry. You have a way with words, I'll give you that, but you're nonetheless glossing over the fact that the very nature of Alan's presuppositions and yours is vastly different. Yours are based on a leap of faith, which makes them inherently irrational. Alan's, on the other hand, have nothing to do with faith whatsoever -they're rooted in a tradition of empirical research and logical deduction. Equating both stances, at least to my mind, is intellectually dishonest.

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                  • Alan FraserA Offline
                    Alan Fraser
                    last edited by

                    @unknownuser said:

                    Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions

                    I never mentioned the resurrection. I did however notice that you earlier referred to evidence of the resurrection. There is none. There is no evidence (outside the pages of the Bible) that any Jesua Bar Joseph ever existed at all...no court records, no mention in any contemporary Jewish or Roman chronicles or records of anyone of that name travelling around the province, preaching to vast crowds, no legacy of followers resulting from those sermons...nothing at all. Most of the early christian groups were formed as a result of the later efforts of St Paul, who never even met Jesus....if he existed.

                    I don't presuppose anything. You keep doing this...creating some kind of equivalence where none exists. You can't presuppose the absence of something. I don't presuppose the absence of a god any more than one presupposes the absence 300 foot statue of Marilyn Monroe orbiting Alpha Centauri. It simply doesn't figure in my philosophy. That is entirely different from presupposition; only theists presuppose.

                    @unknownuser said:

                    No, that absolutely does not follow. Certainly if Jesus rose from the dead he proved the existence of God in a way I no longer can. I can give historical evidence of the event but I can't reproduce it for you.

                    Yes it absolutely does follow. You don't 'lose' something as profound as positive proof of god...and certainly not if that god is anything remotely worthy of the name. We're talking of an omnipotent being who takes the trouble to reveal himself, not some struggling grade teacher, striving to get her pupils to remember something as far as the next SATs.
                    If you can give historical evidence of the Resurrection, I'd be delighted to see it. Like I said, I don't harbour presuppositions.

                    Concrete is a bad example. the secret was never lost, it just became scarcer for a while; but in any case, it's an irrelevant comparison.

                    @unknownuser said:

                    You seem to have a very low view of ancient people which I don't hold to.

                    Not in the least...just some of them. At the time of the history recorded in the scriptures, there were highly advanced cultures all over the planet. There was Egypt and Assyria, there was the Indus Valley and China. All these places had civilization, culture and writing.
                    You therefore have to ask yourself why on earth a god would reveal himself to a bunch of nomadic goatherders of no fixed abode and only an oral tradition of record keeping? I mean, it's so easy to lose such a revelation isn't it? How terribly convenient...just like the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant.

                    If you have any intellectual honesty, you also have to question the relationship between the primitive Middle eastern concept of the scapegoat, a blood-sacrificial animal which could be used to absorb evil and thus remove it from society; and the concept of a blood-sacrificial man who was also a son of god that could do the same thing for sin.

                    I presuppose nothing, but consider everything...something that definitely cannot be said of most christians...especially in the USA...and their incredibly parochial view of religion.

                    EDIT: I have to say, this is getting rather boring now...especially as you seem to insist on creating an equivalence between the world view of rationalists and theists. As both Tom and i have now stated, there is no equivalence; we don't presuppose; we argue from the principle of empiricism.

                    It's almost as if the Age of Reason never happened. People like Cornel can be relied upon to point out that many people back then were still ardently religious. Of course they were; empirical investigation was only in its infancy and God remained the best explanation for many things. That is not the case now. There remains nothing that requires supernatural input...not even creation. That's not arrogance, that's just the way it is. Take it or leave it.

                    Apparently you presuppose that what you were taught in church and Sunday School is true, at least in part. I don't make any such presumption. I don't see why the beliefs of a Middle Eastern Bronze Age society should shape my life in the advanced industrial age any more than any other such society. There's good stuff in there and there's bad. I've generally found that all the good stuff can be found in just about every other society...of any religion or none.

                    Pretty much any religion on earth can be distilled down to "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." Atheists operate according to exactly the same rule. None of us need any deity to tell us the best way to get along; we're perfectly capable of working that out for ourselves. If we hadn't worked that out aeons before Biblical times we almost certainly wouldn't be here now.

                    3D Figures
                    Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                    You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                    • C Offline
                      cornel
                      last edited by

                      @alan fraser said:

                      If you have any intellectual honesty, you also have to question the relationship between the primitive Middle eastern concept of the scapegoat, a blood-sacrificial animal which could be used to absorb evil and thus remove it from society; and the concept of a blood-sacrificial man who was also a son of god that could do the same thing for sin.

                      'Alan F.', โ€œif you have any intellectual honestyโ€, you have to recognize that animal blood only โ€˜coveredโ€™ sin, and showed symbolically to โ€˜Lamb of Godโ€™ who cleaned sin of the world ...!

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                      • Alan FraserA Offline
                        Alan Fraser
                        last edited by

                        Meaningless sophism, Cornel, that has absolutely nothing to do with honesty, intellectual or otherwise.`It's just a riposte you think sounds good.

                        3D Figures
                        Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                        You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                        • C Offline
                          cornel
                          last edited by

                          @alan fraser said:

                          People like Cornel can be relied upon to point out that many people back then were still ardently religious. Of course they were; empirical investigation was only in its infancy and God remained the best explanation for many things.

                          โ€˜Alan F.โ€™ I am not "religious" but true believer, in real God!
                          My "investigations" have not been "empirical", but very laborious, systematic and scientificโ€ฆ
                          Do not explain you about me, just making some wrong assumptions...!

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                          • Alan FraserA Offline
                            Alan Fraser
                            last edited by

                            Fair enough, Cornel. I apologise for putting words in your mouth...although frankly I find it unlikely that you would disagree with the fact that many more scientists were fervently religious 300 years ago than today...when the vast majority now appear to be atheist.
                            I am somewhat fascinated, however, as to how you can claim many years of systematic, scientific research that somehow manages to entirely avoid empiricism.

                            The definition of Scientific Method:-
                            "Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."

                            3D Figures
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                            You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                            • Alan FraserA Offline
                              Alan Fraser
                              last edited by

                              http://uberhumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/david-attenborough1.jpg

                              3D Figures
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                              You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                              • C Offline
                                cornel
                                last edited by

                                @alan fraser said:

                                The definition of Scientific Method:-
                                "Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."

                                'Alan F.' I referred to the broad/popular sense of term "scientific": done in an organized way, based on research, knowledge, etc. Because of that, I combined it with โ€œlaboriousโ€ and โ€œsystematicโ€ ...
                                Do not speculate!

                                Apart from this, you were totally wrong saying abaut me: โ€œempirical investigation was only in its INFANCY and God remained the best explanation for many things.โ€

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                                • Alan FraserA Offline
                                  Alan Fraser
                                  last edited by

                                  Still not sure I understand. The only thing I said about you was that you would agree that many people in the 18th century were still ardently religious. Apparently you do not think that, as you are saying I was totally wrong in that assumption.

                                  I do understand about your use of the words science and systematic, however. Your use of the word science is anything but broad and popular. The broad and popular understanding of the term is the one I gave. That is the one that is taught in schools; that is the one that actually gets stuff done. There is science and then there is metaphysics and mysticism. You are perfectly at liberty to use such methods, but please call them by their correct terms as it avoids such misunderstandings.

                                  3D Figures
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                                  You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                                  • chrisglasierC Offline
                                    chrisglasier
                                    last edited by

                                    Atheism 2.0

                                    Here endith the lesson - some chance

                                    With TBA interfaces we can analyse what is to be achieved so that IT can help with automation to achieve it.

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                                    • StinkieS Offline
                                      Stinkie
                                      last edited by

                                      Oooh, thanks for that. ๐Ÿ‘

                                      (Anyone seen "The Perfect Home"? Totally recommend it.)

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                                      • IdahoJI Offline
                                        IdahoJ
                                        last edited by

                                        He has an interesting way of making his point. So does this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg

                                        Cheers.

                                        "For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen."

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                                        • Alan FraserA Offline
                                          Alan Fraser
                                          last edited by

                                          TIG posted the same link to Alain de Botton at the bottom of p. 56. Personally, I think de Botton makes some very valid points. There seems to be a basic need in mankind for the kind of order, ceremony and reinforcement that he points out that religion is actually very good at. It might be fine for the likes of Richard Dawkins to intellectualise about the nature of reality, but you can't really expect some white-haired little old granny (maybe of limited educations and who recently lost her husband) to do the same. She just wants some order, familiarity and TLC.

                                          3D Figures
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                                          • StinkieS Offline
                                            Stinkie
                                            last edited by

                                            Thirty-five year-old atheists with an MA want the same thing. At least this one does. ๐Ÿ˜„ As you suggest, Dawkins' stern outlook isn't for everyone. Far from it, I think. No-one wants to be on a diet all the time - not when there's gravy, and pie, and sausage rolls.

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