Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
āSoloā, something is wrong!
Who was TRULY āborn againā, that person can not lose the faith/trust in God, can not lose salvation of God...! It is impossible something like that...!Oh... Cornel....
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@solo said:
Hmmm, there were many factors, one was the studying of the bible, just seemed that they were interpreting it to suit their flavor, I had many questions that I felt was intercepted with lame and unfulfilled answers. Then there was the tithe, taken very seriously to a point that it felt more like a tax and them like spiritual mafia.
The whole 'making fishers of men' thing also got too much after a while as we were required to do some real tough stuff like administering to total strangers in malls, outside nightclubs on Saturday nights, invite total strangers to study the bible with a push/goal to get them baptized and into the 'flock' (more like tithe paying members)
It all seemed like one huge scam.I was raised a baptist, grandfather was a reverend and my dad in South Africa is now a preacher in his church, so coming to my convictions was difficult and did cause many heartaches within my family. I am much happier now and totally convinced I am correct, almost like being blind and suddenly seeing (stealing a quote from the bible), the fog of Christianity can be blinding but once you see the truth you feel silly for actually believing all that crap.
Very interesting. I find it fascinating that we've had a number of similar experiences and, in fact, seem to have a lot of the same opinions on what's wrong in the church, and yet we've reached such different conclusions. I've seen that same issue of people having questions which have gone unanswered - particularly before they're Christians. I haven't personally experienced the pressure to tithe although I've heard that was an issue in the past in many ICOC churches. I believe evangelism is important but I agree that the focus and method is flawed and haven't participated in the sorts of things you're referring to.
So we have many of the same frustrations. And I did go through a period not long ago where I struggled with a lot of questions. But these weren't so much questions about God, but rather about the church. Why do you suppose we faced similar situations and came to question different things because of them?
I do wonder what you're referring to regarding interpreting the Bible to suit their flavor. Can you explain that a bit more?
How is your family with your decision at this point?
-Brodie
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Those who are saved (āborn againā), are given by the Father in the care of His Son, the Lord, and He said:
āAll that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.ā (John 6:37-39)The Lord Jesus Christ does not lose any, because He DOES the will of the Father!
āSoloā, it means that you actually have no a clear definition of expresion āBORN AGAINā..., in a biblical way!
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When architects have time to waste on arguing the merits (pro and con) of religion you can tell the economy has not yet turned the corner.
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@unknownuser said:
Those who are saved (āborn againā), are given by the Father in the care of His Son, the Lord, and He said:
āAll that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.ā (John 6:37-39)The Lord Jesus Christ does not lose any, because He DOES the will of the Father!
āSoloā, it means that you actually have no a clear definition of expresion āBORN AGAINā..., in a biblical way!
In what sense is this helpful, Cornel? You're talking about a doctrine which many Christians don't even buy into. In what sense could it possibly be worth bringing up to someone who doesn't believe in God, much less salvation?
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
The Lord Jesus Christ does not lose any, because He DOES the will of the Father!
Riight...Always found the trinity a very mindboggling concept. All are one but all are separate. If we think in the terms of the trinity then the father's will should be the same as the son's and the holy ghost's!? If not, then they aren't one and if that is the case, then Christianity isn't the much touted monotheistic religions it thinks it is.
As we've already saw, contradictions are not a problem for religion. -
Cornel please try another book, I suggest an encyclopedia for a start.
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@ 'Marian'.
God is One Entity, that manifests, for your easy understanding, in 3 āPersonsā: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All of Them have the same āattributesā, which are highlighted in a different way, from One to Other. Otherwise, you will not understand why God is, for example, love and justiceā¦ -
Pete,
I see. So these sorts of issues were sort of a catalyst for you to begin raising your own questions and those questions lead you down a road that eventually resulted in you questioning the very existence of God?
At times you seem very... adamant in your opinion? Do you find any parallels to how you used to espouse your position as a Christian with how you advocate them as an atheist?
-Brodie
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@solo said:
Good observation, I am not sure how to answer this. I guess I had to have been a very staunch believer to hang around nightclubs in dodgy areas at midnight preaching to the drunk and disorderly, to spend more time at church and with strangers than with my family. Maybe I have one of those extreme personalities that is either 100% or nothing, I dunno, however I do know that I was wrong, very wrong and see the danger in such organizations. I am not calling all Christian denominations or non denominations dangerous or cult like, but I will say the ICOC is by my own experiences.
I'd probably say understandably so. I've heard stories which sound much worse than your experience by folks who are actually still in the church. I think you'd be happy to know that much of what you're expressing has been rectified by people not unlike ourselves who saw the unbiblical practices which were being implemented. There are always frustrations but at least the frustrations now are not those of the past or I'd have found a different church some time ago. Of course, I understand that is little consolation at this point and at any rate, from your perspective those practices ended up leading you to the truth.
I do find the evangelistic sort of parallel interesting though (and certainly not limited to just yourself). On one hand there are a group of people who feel they have the truth which leads to a more fulfilling and consistent life, aligned with how the world really functions. There's a very humanitarian sort of desire to share that knowledge with others that they, too, might know the truth. And on the other hand you have the Christians, in the same boat. We all seem to wrestle with the dichotomy of how to express our beliefs in such a way as to be convincing and convicting without sounding irrational and turning folks off completely. That's the impression I'm coming to at least. Something I'm not sure I've every really considered before.
How would you express your...framework - the lens through which you view your experiences. As a belief? A worldview?...
-Brodie
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Hi Guys sorry for my poor English first. I read most of the comments and saw things mean like "I read smtg. in bible thats false this church say this other say that ...." and now I become atheist.What about thinking maybe it is corrupted!What about God send a new messenger.Is that so easy for you guys thinking like "if there is no God that proove my idea I live how I want to live believers not and now all we dead" if there is we will see what happens.Sorry for English again I hope you understand me
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@unknownuser said:
@solo said:
Regurgitate your versus somewhere else, the adults are talking now.
Hello, adults!
To be āborn againā is not enough tu believe in God, but you have tu REPENT, with sincere sorrow for past, and with grateful devotion for the future...!Define repent.
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@dropout said:
Define repent.
Little about repentance...
All people have sinned before God, but too few recognize this and regret for their past life. However, the wages of sin is death...! For Man to be saved, Jesus Christ took upon Himself all the sins of mankind, and was punished in the place of sinners. Those who repents, confess their sins, thank to the Redeemer/Savior for His sacrifice, recognize Him as their Lord, renounce to their sinful way, and trust from now in God.At 1 John 1:9 is written:
āIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.ā
Sins must be identified, named and confessed! When we recognize sins, God forgives us!
God does not forgive excuses - many seek only to apologize, to justify them ... But God forgives sins confessed with contrition, that caused grief to us...There is a āpalpableā condition, that God puts to all that they want forgiveness, condition that showed us by Jesus in the prayer "Our Father in heavenā:
āforgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtorsā (see Mattew 6:12)
We are aware of this stringent act, just in the next verses:
āFor if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.ā (Mattew 6:14-15) -
@ āSoloā.
You were a seasonal believer in the āChurch of Christā, because in that church, there are two wrong āstepsā in the āPlan of Salvationā: Step 5 and Step 6ā¦Step 5 says: āBe Baptized for the Remission of Your Sinsā, but Baptism does not forgive sins, does not saveā¦ It has another role!
Step 6 says: āBe Faithful Unto Death! To continue in Godās grace, you must continue to serve God faithfully until death...ā
But nobody can be so through his efforts and meritsā¦!
You have learned that: āUnless they remain faithful, those who are in Godās grace will fall from grace, and those whose names are in the Book of Life will have their names blotted out of that bookā, but God does not make rectification. God does not erase what He wrote in the Book of Life ! -
@jason_maranto said:
I've known many people from religious backgrounds who have "fallen away" -- and I have to ask myself is it really God they are recoiling from or the human elements of religion.
@dropout said:
When you critique the current North American view of Christianity you are critiquing a caricature of what following Christ really means.
@solo said:
I agree, the American version of Christianity is nothing Christ like, however it's spread across the globe I have seen the same 'Christians' in both South Africa as well as Australia. Jesus would not stand a chance in our world today, and the funny part is it would be the Christians that would make sure of that.
@unknownuser said:
That air of individuality, self-accomplishment and freedom your specific brand of christianity seems to have about it ... pretty much a foreign thing, over here. Look at a Bosch painting for reference.
Again about this important topic http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/2884/
To know more about the true Christianity I suggest reading works of this great mind. -
@unknownuser said:
@ āSoloā.
You were a seasonal believer in the āChurch of Christā, because in that church, there are two wrong āstepsā in the āPlan of Salvationā: Step 5 and Step 6ā¦Step 5 says: āBe Baptized for the Remission of Your Sinsā, but Baptism does not forgive sins, does not saveā¦ It has another role!
Step 6 says: āBe Faithful Unto Death! To continue in Godās grace, you must continue to serve God faithfully until death...ā
But nobody can be so through his efforts and meritsā¦!
You have learned that: āUnless they remain faithful, those who are in Godās grace will fall from grace, and those whose names are in the Book of Life will have their names blotted out of that bookā, but God does not make rectification. God does not erase what He wrote in the Book of Life !This probably isn't the thread for a Christian debate but as we've long since gone off the rails of the original topic I'll bite. In "Step 5" you begin with essentially quoting a verse from Acts but then misinterpret the verse as well as the Church of Christ position. Baptism isn't an issue of 'what' saves us (the Church of Christ teaches that God saves, not baptism), but 'when' we're saved (by God).
And I've never heard your "step 6." Where is that quote from? The Church of Christ doesn't teach eternal security which I guess is probably what that quote is getting at. But I suspect you're misinterpreting this to be a more harsh teaching that it is in practice. The only practical difference is that I believe Pete may very well have been a sincere and committed Christian for a time whereas you would say he never was a Christian.
-Brodie
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
How would you express your...framework - the lens through which you view your experiences. As a belief? A worldview?...
I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, are you are asking how I make sense of things after living half my life as a devout theist to now being atheist?
Originally I just meant what terminology you would use. I found myself wanting to talk about your 'beliefs' but many atheists see that word as some sort of an affront. But your question was more towards where I was ultimately going. As a Christian to be as committed as you were you must have strongly believed that not only was there a God but the world was, in fact, a broken place which God was in the process of restoring - not to mention how we are broken people who likewise need restoration. I'm sure you explained Jesus to countless people after the bars closed and the sort of radical life he lived and that he'd died for them. And you must have felt that you had some relationship with God through prayer and reading the Bible, but also through the community you guys had developed by sharing your faith together and being open with eachother.
The conversion from that sort of belief system, even with it's frustrations which you've touched on, into a worldview which says that all of those experiences were self-deceit at best, and perhaps destructive at worst, must have been a terribly difficult process, no?
-Brodie
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