Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
@ ‘Solo’.
You were a seasonal believer in the “Church of Christ”, because in that church, there are two wrong “steps” in the “Plan of Salvation”: Step 5 and Step 6…Step 5 says: “Be Baptized for the Remission of Your Sins”, but Baptism does not forgive sins, does not save… It has another role!
Step 6 says: “Be Faithful Unto Death! To continue in God’s grace, you must continue to serve God faithfully until death...”
But nobody can be so through his efforts and merits…!
You have learned that: “Unless they remain faithful, those who are in God’s grace will fall from grace, and those whose names are in the Book of Life will have their names blotted out of that book”, but God does not make rectification. God does not erase what He wrote in the Book of Life !This probably isn't the thread for a Christian debate but as we've long since gone off the rails of the original topic I'll bite. In "Step 5" you begin with essentially quoting a verse from Acts but then misinterpret the verse as well as the Church of Christ position. Baptism isn't an issue of 'what' saves us (the Church of Christ teaches that God saves, not baptism), but 'when' we're saved (by God).
And I've never heard your "step 6." Where is that quote from? The Church of Christ doesn't teach eternal security which I guess is probably what that quote is getting at. But I suspect you're misinterpreting this to be a more harsh teaching that it is in practice. The only practical difference is that I believe Pete may very well have been a sincere and committed Christian for a time whereas you would say he never was a Christian.
-Brodie
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
How would you express your...framework - the lens through which you view your experiences. As a belief? A worldview?...
I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, are you are asking how I make sense of things after living half my life as a devout theist to now being atheist?
Originally I just meant what terminology you would use. I found myself wanting to talk about your 'beliefs' but many atheists see that word as some sort of an affront. But your question was more towards where I was ultimately going. As a Christian to be as committed as you were you must have strongly believed that not only was there a God but the world was, in fact, a broken place which God was in the process of restoring - not to mention how we are broken people who likewise need restoration. I'm sure you explained Jesus to countless people after the bars closed and the sort of radical life he lived and that he'd died for them. And you must have felt that you had some relationship with God through prayer and reading the Bible, but also through the community you guys had developed by sharing your faith together and being open with eachother.
The conversion from that sort of belief system, even with it's frustrations which you've touched on, into a worldview which says that all of those experiences were self-deceit at best, and perhaps destructive at worst, must have been a terribly difficult process, no?
-Brodie
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Wow Pete, Thanks for sharing your story. The power of human relationships is what strikes me in your story. It's very unfortunate when it is used to control people especially in cutting off meaningful contact with the "outside" (see Waco for an extreme example)
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Yes, thanks Pete for sharing.
My experience with the church is so much different. I belong to a large Methodist church which is mission oriented. Our Sunday School teacher is a PHD in Genetics and brings a unique view. In our church evangelizing is encouraged but not required and tithing the same. We have many missions going on at any given time in Honduras, Ghana, Costa Rica as well as many locally. All of which share the gospel but don't push it. One of my friends said of a building mission he went on that God/Jesus was never brought up, they just loved the people they were serving. I have also been involved with the music ministry since I was 16 on and off. I could easily say that my church going experiences have been on the "happy happy joy joy" side of the spectrum. However I do not have my eyes so tightly shut that I don't explore, think, reason, debate or question my belief. -
Thanks for sharing your story Pete. You certainly have an interesting perspective on the matter having been devout on both sides of the issue. I can certainly appreciate the relationship aspect you're referring to and how that would make your decision very difficult - which means your reasons for becoming an atheist must have been very strong. I continue to find intriguing parallels in our stories.
Can you talk a bit more about your transition not just from ICOC to another church or from Christianity to some other religion, but from theism to atheism? Many people, I think, have faced some of those same catalysts which you did but the result is switching churches or coming to a different understanding of scripture. How, for you, did the road go far beyond that and into atheism?
-Brodie
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Boofredlay, I can't claim the same track record with church but your description, I think, touches on much of what I think God envisions his church to be like and the knowledge that those sorts of places are out there continue to give me hope.
From a Christian perspective, Pete's experience certainly speaks to how important it is that we Christians are careful to live out the gospel and that our churches look more like your description, not to mention that we're interpreting scripture correctly, and being intellectually honest.
-Brodie
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Who had a form of faith, but fell, and never returned, fits into these two possibilities:
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He just had the impression of being ‘born again’ and had no from where to fall, because he actually trusted in himself, in his merits. He knew something ABOUT God, but did not KNOW HIM, closely, intimate…, even if he attended any church for decades.
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He sinned again, in any way, and believes that there is no more salvation for him, because he does not know how God resolve it:
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1-2)
Sin can not abduct to me the salvation and eternal life (Jesus Christ paid for all my sins - past, present and future one…), but may diminish my joy to be in intimacy with the Lord, my Redeemer.
Therefore, as a child of God, I should ensure my way of living, I have to confess sins that have ever appeared in my life, so that, through His forgiveness, to enjoy the restored fellowship.
At Ephesians 4:30, it says so:
“ Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
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Anyone notice the Google logo today? Today is Nicolas Steno's 374th birthday.
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I'll add this to topic. About the relation between science and religion. I know nothing about quantum, but my friends physicians told me science and religion are beginning to merge on quantum level.
"In today’s world we tend to perceive the world in the classical mode, yet we could, and sometimes do, perceive aspects of it in the direct mode as well. However, our left-hemisphere dominated perceptual mode represses information that doesn’t accord with our established ways of thinking. Only in spiritual, religious, or mystical experience does such information penetrate to our everyday awareness - and then, just fleetingly."
http://artoflivingguide.org/thinking/cosmic-symphony-deeper-look-quantum-consciousnessI'd say it is hard to discuss this things using only classical mode of thinking. And that's where all the misunderstandings are. For unknown things one need intuition. Believing needs all human, not only his logic, which is IMO a small part of him. The biggest problem is to admit it (pride). The smarter you are, the harder it is.
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@unknownuser said:
Who had a form of faith, but fell, and never returned, fits into these two possibilities:
- He just had the impression of being ‘born again’ and had no from where to fall, because he actually trusted in himself, in his merits. He knew something ABOUT God, but did not KNOW HIM, closely, intimate…, even if he attended any church for decades.
You presume much in suggesting that someone whom you don't at all know 'trusted in himself, in his merits.' I would presume no such thing. If some day, some tragedy befell you - you lost a child, you suffered abuse from the church, etc. and you turned your back on God it wouldn't change all of the years of your past which were spent trusting in him and knowing him.
@unknownuser said:
- He sinned again, in any way, and believes that there is no more salvation for him, because he does not know how God resolve it...
I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to get at with this second point. I think you said you were from Canada earlier. Are you a native english speaker? Much of your sentence structure is difficult for me to decipher.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
Are you a native english speaker? Much of your sentence structure is difficult for me to decipher.
Sorry, 'Brodie' for my poor english grammar...! English is my 3rd language!
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Mine too. I gave up on my first 2.
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I think this sums up my views on Religion.
[flash=853,505:1thcpqqm]http://www.youtube.com/v/1IAhDGYlpqY&fs=1[/flash:1thcpqqm]
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I think people are beginning to understand that the wolf of Rome masked himself in the lamb skin of Christ...but there still is true light from the Orthodox source.
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@unknownuser said:
I think this sums up my views on Religion.
Oh no, not this video again. It's just a bunch of contradictions.....The guy says he hates religion but, loves the church, the bible and Jesus. If that isn't still religion I'll eat my sox.
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@unknownuser said:
Please post a vid on YouTube.
I would, but it still is a religion, so no cotton fiber in my tummy today. -
As a Christian I appreciate the message he's trying to get across. The dichotomy between the sort of works based system of the world and relationship based system of God. However, I would tend to side with the atheists on this one in saying that this sort of popular movement to suggest Christianity isn't a religion is simply well intentioned equivocation. I hope atheists don't miss the point that's being raised here, but I think it's clear that Christianity fits any normal definition of the word "religion" and to suggest otherwise is just a sort of rhetorical dishonesty.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
(...) I think it's clear that Christianity fits any normal definition of the word "religion" and to suggest otherwise is just a sort of rhetorical dishonesty.
Word.
Marian, less talking, mo' eating.
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