They should not be given a lawyer
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The things are moving fast!
@unknownuser said:
"The enemy is all over the world. Here at home. And when people take up arms against the United States and [are] captured within the United States, why should we not be able to use our military and intelligence community to question that person as to what they know about enemy activity?" Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said.
"They should not be read their Miranda Rights. They should not be given a lawyer," Graham said.It's scandalous that even "concerned side" is not concerned for non U.S. citizens. You can get sent to Guantanamo and be locked up for life, without ever being charged.
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don't kill innocent people and don't engage the American Military on the battlefield and you won't have that problem. would you rather us summarily execute them? and anyway... they do get lawyers. and trials and we're not holding them forever... it's indefinite.
in·def·i·nite/inˈdefənit/
Adjective:Lasting for an unknown length of time: "indefinite detention". Not clearly expressed or defined; vague: "their status remains indefinite".I give you one of the most important liberties in America, the 5th amendment.
@unknownuser said:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation"
you see we don't give our rights to citizens of other nations unless they are on American soil when captured or arrested. you have to understand the American legal system and the difference between a soldier and a criminal and the burden of proof to convict either. if it makes you feel better American soldiers do not get our civil rights either. they are tried in the same manner as the terrorists for any crime they commit.
bottom line? don't fuck and around with the bull and you won't get the horns. and besides if you're sooo interested in America's civil liberties why don't you protest to get them for your own country before you protest about our use of our own rights...
do you have the right to remain silent?
do you have the right to a lawyer?
do you have the right against unreasonable search and seizure?
do you have the right to bear arms?
do you have the right not to incriminate yourself?
do you have the right to a speedy trial?
do you have the right to have fair and reasonable bail?
does your wife have the right not to testify against you?it goes on and on but you see my point...
I got 2 words for ya... Basque separatists... wonder what goes on in those lil rooms when the Spanish National Police are interrogating them...
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Dang Krisidious, spoken like a champ!!
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@unknownuser said:
n a stunning move that has civil libertarians stuttering with disbelief, the U.S. Senate has just passed a bill that effectively ends the Bill of Rights in America.
The National Defense Authorization Act is being called the most traitorous act ever witnessed in the Senate, and the language of the bill is cleverly designed to make you think it doesn't apply to Americans, but toward the end of the bill, it essentially says it can apply to Americans "if we want it to.
Bill Summary & Status, 112th Congress (2011 -- 2012) | S.1867 | Latest Title: National Defense Authorization Act for.
This bill, passed late last night in a 93-7 vote, declares the entire USA to be a "battleground" upon which U.S. military forces can operate with impunity, overriding Posse Comitatus and granting the military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate and even assassinate U.S. citizens with impunity.
Even WIRED magazine was outraged at this bill, reporting:
Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial
...the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn't limited to foreigners. It's confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas' Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — "U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority."@unknownuser said:
and besides if you're sooo interested in America's civil liberties why don't you protest to get them for your own country before you protest about our use of our own rights...
If you vote for bombs we get them! Protests doesn't help. Think about it. Every road leads from Rome... and goes global. I would rather not look on USA, but they are here telling me how to live or else...
Depleted Uranium Radiation resulting from NATO Bombings in Serbia : High Incidence of Cancer
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18432
I bet it has influence on Greece too... -
But... the USA DID long ago sign the 'Geneva Convention'... which covers the treatment/detention of 'enemy combatants'... and that seems to preclude what's been happening at Guantanamo Bay / CIA rendition etc...
Also 'cruel and unnatural punishments', 'lengthy detention without a fair trial/representation' and 'general torture' etc ARE forbidden by the US Constitution - and these are not specifically defined for US citizens only...
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What does the Constitution say about abduction and torture?
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@unknownuser said:
bottom line? don't fuck and around with the bull and you won't get the horns.
And what if they did not fuck with the bull, but rather the bull lied in order to fuck with them? see Iraq invasion as example.
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@unknownuser said:
And what if they did not fuck with the bull, but rather the bull lied in order to fuck with them? see Iraq invasion as example.
Iraq had been fucking with the bull for like 10 straight years. invade a country right next door to our closest Arab ally and top oil importer to the U.S. and you have surely pulled out the red cape. whats-more they built nuclear plants and used chemical weapons on their own people, whats-more they paid bountys to Palestinian suicide bombers families for attacks on our closest middle eastern ally. whats-more they consistently and purposefully denied and deported U.N. inspectors for years. then we have the oil for food scam in which they were again buying more weapons... then we have the fact that America themselves had sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq... so we know he had some, he believed he had some, his military told him he had some.
all of this... I consider fucking with the bull. and now as a result of the invasion 30 million people are deciding their own destiny, will it be successful? probably not; if mankind is any indicator. but they have the chance, and I for one am proud to be a citizen of the nation who helped bring it to them.
what would you have us do with these murderers? bring the soldiers in the field back to America to wait to testify? to collect finger prints and other evidence in the field of battle? the burden of proof in the united states civil courts is high, so high that it is not reasonable to expect the kind of evidence and respect of rights on the battlefield. you can't have soldiers asking permission to search a house or wait for a warrant.
as for torture? talk to John McCain... when just one of these terrorists has gotten treatment 10% of what that man endured then I may feel sorry for the murderous bastards who blow up innocent women and kids for their own selfish beliefs.
and speaking of field of battle; the Geneva convention specifically dictates the treatment of enemy combatants, which you need to take heed to the description thereof; these are not soldiers, the Geneva conventions were for soldiers who donned their nation's colors and uniforms, not terrorists and insurrectionists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant ... I say we set them all free... in the middle of the ocean.
what I find most disheartening is not the question of whether or not America is right or wrong in any one circumstance, but how vehemently and viciously some people attack her when she has paid so high a price for the liberty of the citizens of the world on so many occasions... that she is not given the benefit of the doubt or even the respect of her sacrifices weight. and the insinuation that she does so for money and purposes of greed is even more insulting, our children lay their life and limb down and I promise you they do it for the liberty of the oppressed and the weak, not the Halliburtons of the world, regardless of the intent of politicians.
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Sigh.
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Oh Krisidious, you poor,silly,ignorant boy. How dare you defend the US. We're nothing but a bunch of capitalist pigs that are greedy,lazy,self-indulgent boors who are unaware of the world around us. We love to attack anything plus we love to rape and pillage the resources of every country that doesn't bend to our will. Sigh, you really need to get your priorities straight.
Of course if you can read this you can thank a teacher, if you can say this in your native tongue you can thank a US soldier, but that's besides the point.
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Dang Kris, Your views are extreme, actually scary.
I live in Texas an do not believe I've met anyone with such extreme right wing rhetoric.
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@o2bwln said:
Oh Krisidious, you poor,silly,ignorant boy. How dare you defend the US. We're nothing but a bunch of capitalist pigs that are greedy,lazy,self-indulgent boors who are unaware of the world around us. We love to attack anything plus we love to rape and pillage the resources of every country that doesn't bend to our will. Sigh, you really need to get your priorities straight.
Of course if you can read this you can thank a teacher, if you can say this in your native tongue you can thank a US soldier, but that's besides the point.
agree on that.
i guess some people may need to read or seek for different angle point of views.
and lucky for those some others who know well and understand what "false flag" operation might means.
cause some capitalist may need all instruments they can get to have more profit from others.
let's say oil for instance. -
Kristoff Rand
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@solo said:
Dang Kris, Your views are extreme, actually scary.
I live in Texas an do not believe I've met anyone with such extreme right wing rhetoric.
But mocking peoples religious beliefs is perfectly normal, not scary at all.
Sigh...Move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
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What did you expect from a liberal atheist?
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@o2bwln said:
Sigh...Move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
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@krisidious said:
(...) then we have the fact that America themselves had sold weapons of mass destruction to Iraq... so we know he had some, he believed he had some, his military told him he had some.
You're 'forgetting' those WMD's were never found. Hell, at one point the Bush administration expected the Iraqi government to prove they didn't have any. You can't prove a negative, but hey, who cares? Oh, remember the yellowcake thing? I do.
@krisidious said:
(...) as a result of the invasion 30 million people are deciding their own destiny, will it be successful? probably not; if mankind is any indicator. but they have the chance, and I for one am proud to be a citizen of the nation who helped bring it to them.
You're ... proud. Excuse me while I retch. The US invasion didn't bring freedom to Iraq. It brought chaos, anguish and death. Which the Bush administration was repeatedly warned of. They chose to ignore these warnings. They were bent on keeping the invasion 'small', as that would help 'sell' it to the American public. It's all pretty well documented.
You needn't believe me, obviously. Travel to Baghdad, explain that bit about being proud to any given passer-by, and see whether he/she agrees.
@krisidious said:
as for torture? talk to John McCain... when just one of these terrorists has gotten treatment 10% of what that man endured then I may feel sorry for the murderous bastards who blow up innocent women and kids for their own selfish beliefs.
It's absolutely baffling an adult would write this sort of dense, sophistic bs. You don't do logic and reason, do you? And while we're on the subject of dead women and children, how many died because of Rumsfeld's and Wolfowitz' Straussian agenda? Good thing, though, their families are now able "to decide their own destiny". Yay!
@krisidious said:
I say we set them all free... in the middle of the ocean.
Without trial, no doubt.
@krisidious said:
(...) that she is not given the benefit of the doubt or even the respect of her sacrifices weight.
Wait, wait. Despite the fact there's ample proof, including the testimonies of former Bush administration members, the US invaded Iraq under false pretence, you'd still like us to go "oh, help yourselves", because you, well, are you and because you sent quite a few US soldiers to their deaths for no good reason at all?
That makes sense.
@krisidious said:
(...) our children lay their life and limb down and I promise you they do it for the liberty of the oppressed and the weak, not the Halliburtons of the world, regardless of the intent of politicians.
Whatever 'your children' believe, is irrelevant. It's cold, hard facts that matter, not rhetorics.
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The views expressed here by K are really scary.. I just hope that this right wing bullshit is not widely supported in US.
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I did my disseration for my Master's degree on the whole history of Iraq and conflict in the XXth century. The seeds of conflict were sown as early as the 1920s right after WWI when Iraq became a British protectorate.
Kuwait which until then had been a port city was cut from the southern province of Basra and made a state for the interest of the British. The Kurdish territories in the north were never actually part of what was Iraq in the past but despite the fact that they had different peoples and religions than the majority of Iraq was still incorporated by the British into Iraq as it held important oil reserves. Because of these issues and many others Iraq wasn't a very stable country until the Ba'th party with Saddam as an important member came to power in the late 60s.
Then lets not forget that the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980s was supported by the USA and its allies in the region.
The Kuwait occupation of 1990 should be judged in the right context. Iraq was weakend economically by the war, it was indebted with tens of billions of dollars to Kuwait which also demanded the sum to be payed back at once. Further more Kuwait had occupied the oil fields of southern Basra and didn't want to give them back, it was rigid when negotiation with Iraq and it also undermined Iraq's economy by selling its oil under the OPEC quota, fully supported by the US in this.
These problems combined with the fact Kuwait was considered Iraqi territory and the USA didn't make its intentions very clear is what actually lead to the Gulf War. It seamed to Saddam to be an easy way of solving all his problems.
It was all in the interest of the USA. If they really had wanted to depose of Saddam who they knew was a very cruel leader they could have easily done so then when they also had a lot of support from the population.
They willingly left the Iraqi people to suffer for another 13 years and then went to war against them under false pretenses. WAY TO GO!I don't hate the USA but I do hate the hypocrisy of its policies and its leaders.
How do you destroy a country?
With two bushes!
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