Smoking rooms?
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You are correct. You could trip walking out your front door and that could kill you - but again, this isn't likely to cause injury to anyone else. Sure, there may be a few people that escape the detrimental effects of smoking. A very, very lucky few. Are you gambling on being one of them? Yes, the tired argument of "...you have to die of something." Read 1, 5 and 6 of my post that you didn't read, it isn't only about you. Peer reviewed science says that smoking will shorten your lifespan and has said so for decades, it will likely cause or accelerate the disease that brings about your demise. If one elects to deny or ignore this in the face of the evidence (whether or not you call it "truth") by simply denying it on the basis of personal opinion, this discussion is moot.
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My point wasn't that smoking is un-harmful to the smokers and those around them [it most certainly is very harmful all round], but rather that politicians and others have decided to jump upon all tobacco use as a particular kind of wickedness that gets disproportionate attention and counter-legislation.
But almost everything that we do has some affect on others - even your simple example of you carelessly tripping and injuring yourself has affects many other - money from others would probably go to help treat you when it could have gone elsewhere had you not tripped etc etc. The ambulance-crew is exposed to a danger whilst whisking you to the ER that they wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise. The troubled ER staff-member has that extra bit of stress because you turn up that tips them over the edge into their nervous-breakdown. Next you mother is so upset she has an angina attack etc etc. Your father kicks the dog...
These are often relatively minor affects but they will happen.
My point was that like the US's prohibition of alcohol almost a century ago it won't work in proportion to the effort and expense lavished on it and that is inherently unfair in a 'free-society'. Why should tobacco be so demonized while other things proved to be 'harmful' like alcohol, gambling, dangerous-sports, speeding, air-travel with a big carbon-footprint etc etc are treated disproportionately less seriously? I think that smoking in 'public places' should be banned BUT some sensible lines need drawing in many other walks of life too... -
When I started this thread, I thought we could talk about these 'lines'. It gives me courage that most of you speak about these lines.
IMO we shouldn't expect from a government or even from a pure democracy to give us the meaning of life or so. To be free, we have to be and deeply understand what individual means. Then democracy will prevail, only then.
Smoking issue is a fine subject because its indeed bad for health. But remember, these 'governments' had a completely different opinion on smoking some years ago. This makes the whole discussion interesting to me. It isn't that some courts made a decision in US. Its something else, we aren't fools, are we?
About all these workers in smoking environment:
What is this? A joke? Go tell this to people who are working in mines, in industry, in hospitals. Tell it to policemen, to firemen, to professional soldiers, to non professional solders. To seamen. Tell it to yourself anyway. To fight for living harms your health, in a way or another. Its sad, I know. Liars they are, pure liars. Poverty kills, and they do nothing about it. Do we live in a startrek community? I can imagine Mr Spok telling that smoke is killing. This, I can accept. Only this.
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@michaliszissiou said:
What is this? A joke? Go tell this to people who are working in mines, in industry, in hospitals. Tell it to policemen, to firemen, to professional soldiers, to non professional solders. To seamen.
All industries where a degree of risk is inherent (its never going to be safe to send people thousands of meters underground to operate heavy machinery in confined spaces, and the workers accept this.) Whereas its very easy to eradicate the risks caused by smokers to resteraunt workers. Just because theres risks inherent in every part of life theres no need to exasperate them where its easily controllable.
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We could extrapolate on what-if's all day long. Yes, tripping does have a ripple effect as does smoking - but tripping isn't usually a voluntary event. Sure, we could argue what we believed yesterday is not true today; but that's how things go. We live here, now, today with these beliefs. One could spend all of tomorrow pointing out the hypocrisies of other human ventures related to elective or non-elective risks. Can't predict the future. If one wishes to smoke, great! Just don't expect others to want to be anywhere near it.
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maybe it is only me the one to think that smoking does not harm you, like neither does any other habit, .eating or ..drinking or...
my point is that it is all about a matter of being aware of what makes you feel good or feel bad. Common sense . of living healthily.
That it hurts others I dont believe except when I see it does or when someone who pains, tells me, and then I stop or derive the smoke to a place where it should not hurt ; but I always end going far or quitting it.
How to do in public spaces ?
I think each place should be tested in harmony by the owners listening the ones, and the others and in joining for the place, do make then the decision.
It should not be problems to get an agreement. We have been doing it for years, though unconsciously.
The problem runs with the Government, at any scale, in public spaces.
There, the owners directly finally decides and the decision is already taken.smokers have been sentenced to dead.
As there are people who loves to smoke and there are people who hates to smoke, the Court should have to intervene and decide no ? Unless you decide that one has to die.
We need to have the best people of both of us groups for that Court. Who is willing to ?
@michaliszissiou said:
Smoking issue is a fine subject because its indeed bad for health.
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I mostly agree with this dolphin. A wise dolphin.
Not joking.
What I became know? A stubborn old roman. Empire never ended...
I must change this avatar image as soon as possible.As long as others count money in front of me, I'll try to blow smoke on their faces (even not a smoker now). To show what is truly unhealthy.
What media and health department says is not my concern. Pretenders, liars, hypocrites. How do they call it now? "health department" WOW ... pity. Now to live in a rich country harms the health of poor people, you know this, don't you? -
Strangely todays hot talking piont is the new findings on alchohol being worse than crack cocain.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Is-Alcohol-Really-Worse-Than-Heroin-5603
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/compost/2010/11/alcohol_is_worse_than_heroin_c.html
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molto obligato michaliszissiou
grazie mille as i don´t understand greek.
**A stubborn old roman**should start smoking in behalf of the empire
That is what has happened to you for not prefering being an Carthaginian, did you not play that game at the school ?
cheers -
Show me scientific proofs that it isn't bad, and we'll go from there.
As to the rest you've said, it appears we are in agreement.
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EscapeArtist, I have read your 5 point,
although you have not considered that the first point I did did.
You say in the face of the evidence
and you say whether or not you call it "truth"
And I say that if the evidence is so clear to me then I will be joyfull for sure. For evidence must it be, and mean the Light no ?
so why bother other´-´s evidences if the healthily evidence must be personal because is the one that guides you to your next step.?@escapeartist said:
- Smoking in itself is not a right.
Of course not. We are not talking about that.
The Court will decide that then.
So I have ended reading your others 2,3 and 4 points.
@escapeartist said:
- Smoking costs a lot in lost productivity.
Do not loose productivity then. That is not an argument. Don´t focus so tightly on the bottom line.
@escapeartist said:- It isn't about individuality IMO.
Of course it is not.
and finally your fourth point
@escapeartist said:- Reduction in smoking "freedoms" is not a slippery slope to totalitarian regime, though I think there are other things that the government has sunk its claws too deeply into our private lives. When they say you cannot smoke in your own home - there I draw the line.
I would not wait to draw that LINE just in case.
@escapeartist said:- I enjoy a rare cigar. I do not force, nor would I consider making anyone around me that does not enjoy tobacco to enjoy it with me second hand.
@escapeartist said:
IMO to insist on the ability to smoke in the presence of others who dislike it is selfish and inconsiderate.
Of course it is infantile like trying to show you are competitive.
I think we can get an agreement. Maybe I´ll share with you a good cigar, though I don´t fancy it much)
,.) - Smoking in itself is not a right.
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,.)mm I dont know
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