Article on 3D
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Very cool Adam and nice renders to showcase.
Now about the article, I notice y'all discussing the benefits of 3D presentations of which I'm sure we all agree but what about costs?
What I mean is what are your estimated costs for a full 3D render/ design? is it based on percentage of project, is it deducted from project, what if client does not like the proposal, do you charge for design work? or what if they are only shopping you and use your design to get it installed cheaper?
I've had many issues in the past with the above, I did landscape design for many years and I needed to pre-qualify potential customers before proceeding with designs and sometimes I even had to ask them to put down a deposit before continuing (very hard for me as I'm not good at asking for money)
Sorry for going OT, maybe we can discuss this in the bar.
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Congratulations! It is nice to see one's work showcased.
Regards,
Bob -
congrats adam...you certainly deserve it. Keep up the good work
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@solo said:
What I mean is what are your estimated costs for a full 3D render/ design? is it based on percentage of project, is it deducted from project, what if client does not like the proposal, do you charge for design work? or what if they are only shopping you and use your design to get it installed cheaper?
Great question and it really depends on the situation and why the client contacts me. If they contact me as a designer, then we move forward with a contracted design for which I'm paid a fee, which is an estimated hours per rate. They client can then shop the drawing around and have the benefit of apples to apples price comparison. I typically end up getting the installation work as I've established a rapport with the homeowner and they feel more comfortable with me building it, as I've already built it in 3D, so I know the in's and out's.
If a customer calls me as a contractor, then I approach it differently. We try to sell the design first, but it often is difficult as that homeowner has also contacted multiple other contractors who are trying to sell them designs and they end up very non-committal going in to each sales call. If they are adamantly against paying for a design because they want to see options, then I have to decide if it's worth me spending my time on the design. If I feel like I made a reasonably good impression on them and they liked my ideas, I'll sometimes feel its worth taking the chance and trying to sell the job by WOWing them with a design that blows the other contractors away. I've seen enough results to know that I always have a really good chance of getting the installation work if I do a design for them, even if I'm not the cheapest guy. Being that my salary is recovered in my labor rate for my installation work, I'm never really doing anything for free. My job is simply to get work to keep the installation crew busy enough to pay for overhead and still turn a profit.
I also forgot to mention that if I do a design and the client hasn't paid for it, I never leave it with, but rather show it to them on my laptop or on an 11x17 laser printout. That way it doesn't get shopped around.
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your renders are sick!! well done!
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Adam
Thanks for the response.
I always took presentations on a laptop so that I could not be asked for them to think on and have to refuse them. These days I avoid the customer altogether and only deal with the designer/ architect, I also only do commercial new installs as the reason I got away from landscapes was the customer, I hated dealing with people who had no clue what they wanted.
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Wow, that's great Adam, congrats for your amazing renders as always...
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To jump into this conversation with Solo & Earthmover, I also have similar problems with my clients. I have tried to pad my fee enough to include 3D renderings to present to the client and offer it as a "mandatory" service or a "surprise". When I do this they are more excited about there project, usually less changes (since they know what they are getting), and they have a good feeling about the progress we are making. Although there are only certain jobs I can do that with (the ones I have a higher profit margin on).
It never fails if I put "Architectural Renderings" in the contract as an extra fee it always gets removed, no one sees the necessity and benefits of having a rendering of the final project, no matter how many sample renderings from previous clients I can show them, they all think they can visualize it. I have had zero out of hundreds of clients who actually had the vision and can see it in there minds, no matter if I give them the AutoCAD plans and finishes / sample board, which I do every time along with a 3D rendering.
So my question is there any way to better include this service in my contract to not scare the homeowner away? My commercial clients usually always request renderings, but my residential clients, low or high end never do and are almost scared of it, even if I throw it in for free. It is a service that isn’t cheap and adds time to the project but is well worth it in the end. Could I just contract you Solo to do the renderings?
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Back in the day when I was working in the industry I would normally only do a plan view (2D) with images of species/textures as presentation for softscaping or small hardscaping jobs like low retaining walls, edging, flag-stoning.
For larger residential works like pool and patios, outdoor kitchens, pergola oasis's, etc I would either use Pro landscape, sketchup or Max for the design and render, I had a value for entire job of $20.000 as the minimum to warrant a 'full presentation'.I also had a bunch of developer/builders that did entire neighborhoods who would use us for the initial install and many times I was suckered into creating a render for the show house which they used as site signs and with new builders margins we never ever recovered our costs. If you ever worked with cookie cutter builders you would know that either their margins were very narrow or they just skilled at pleading poverty.
Now commercial work on the other hand is far better and without much negotiations besides the occasional disagreement with the architect who probably only knows 5 species and uses them as his staples over and over (no imagination), besides that they are by far the most profitable but also the most boring...and absolutely you can contract me for any rendering you require.
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@unknownuser said:
Was $20,000 entire project cost or your fee?
It was the estimated cost of completed project back then, I'd assume around 25-30 these days.
My rates are very reasonable however, due to the fact that I'm freelance and do not have the high overheads I can normally meet clients budget most of the time. -
Was $20,000 entire project cost or your fee? I have a hard time with most clients here in Idaho (which is why I have been pursuing other clients in SFO, PDX, and NYC) even wanting to pay me for the design work. "What! You don’t work for Free!!! Well then I just don’t know..." It is completely ridiculous.
Agreed, most residential clients are worse than commercial, the type of design I do is geared more towards higher end clients and a lot of more unique ideas, no cookie cutter designs here. Thanks for the input!
Oh and the renderings in the article look amazing by the way
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Adam,
Congrats on the article, very informative.
How has the recession affected this type of industry in the US? This side of the pond the arse has fallen out of it. A good friend of mine with a family owned landscaping business (20+ staff) recently had to cease operating even though he had quite a large portfolio of clients. His reason was mainly due to wage costs compared to revenue. He does plan to start again in the coming months but on a much smaller scale. Sorry for getting off topic but he was around lately and i showed him your website to showcase the potential of offering a pre-visualization service.
Again, congrats on the article and hope for more success in the future
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My approach is virtually the same as Adams. Like Solo, I typically reserve "wow'ing" or surprising the client with a rendering until it is a $30k+ project.
However, I did render and sign two small $6k projects last week (but the pool contractor that referrred me was happy that he signed both pools). I invested about 2 hours in each rendering, which is a minimal loss of time if they did not buy (but they would not get my 2D or 3D plan if they did not contract).
(Btw, I was quoted in the article - screen name 'Gtrplyr')
Thanks to Adam, who has been a huge help and inspiration, along with all the great contributions here (I am usually a wallflower).
Aaron H
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