Google living off the backs of the bruised?

Align

@jim said:

Didn't we just have a fairly major update to SketchUp and Layout with some great performance increases and new features? Some of the features were requested from their users. This shows me Google is interested in improving SketchUp at the core level, and that they are listening to what their users have to say.

Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback.

Major update! if you consider a back button and a new set of bugs major then yes. LO could be stand alone upgrade anyway and i don't think the majority uses it anyway. maybe they should have spent the time on SU instead of that building maker joke thingy.
a major upgrade to me is; Bender, extrude lines, FredoScale, TOS, Booleans, SDS, Profile Builder, FFD, SoapSkin, SketchyPhysics, Lathe, SliceModeler, Zorro, Weld, SmartPushPull, JPP.... just to name a few, pick any one . this community has upgraded SU more in the past 6 months than the last 6 years of SU. IMHO the last major upgrade to SU was the sandbox.

Align, thanks for getting me started!

Escapeartist, with that strategy they should stop developing their search engine, OS, chrome, earth...

anyday xrok1. ive always made people/companies accountable. im known for that, and i speak the total truth. major update in 7.1 thats very funny

Align

@jim said:

Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback.

by the looks of it, the only core i think sketchup the developers could improve is an apple core. they could design a better apple in sketchup

david.

The OP has a good point. As a paying customer, I have a right to say that I think Google management has really dropped the ball on SU. It is almost laughable to suggest that Google's SU improvements are in the same league as those made by little ole' individuals writing 3rd party plugins.

solo

I dunno guys, there are definitely two sides to everything.

On one hand I agree that our ruby guys are SU's greatest asset and without them many of us would already have moved on to other apps by now. They not only have given us tools that we wished for from the @last guys but also the Google guys, they kept SU fresh and new. Here at SCF they are also our greatest asset as they generate many new members as well as returning ones looking for new ruby's, updates and even requesting scripts.

But on the other hand lets not be too harsh on Google, they are trying and they are listening. There is no way they can completely please everyone all the time. The last update which was completely free (very important point) took a lot of work from many dedicated professionals. They firstly had to consider what they can achieve, what the market wants and also what their company direction demands and come up with a product that could make everyone happy, not easy, but I think they did a sterling job.
We asked for speed... we got it, we asked for back button...we got it, we asked for Layout dimensioning...we got it, we asked for UV tools...we never got it yet, we asked for 64 bit support...we also never got that yet. But do you not see they did try? and they still are trying, they are present on this forum, they answer questions, they help with issues...they are listening.
I'm fortunate and honored to be part of the beta team and I really wish y'all could see the effort they put into fixes, problems, new solutions, supporting the ruby guys that we all love (yes they too respect these guys and will go out of their way to help where they can, in the last release they were very active in making sure that the update supported all the cool plug-ins we have grown to love, many of our ruby guys are also beta testers and they have a great working relationship with the Google guys)

Align

@solo said:

I dunno guys, there are definitely two sides to everything.

On one hand I agree that our ruby guys are SU's greatest asset and without them many of us would already have moved on to other apps by now. They not only have given us tools that we wished for from the @last guys but also the Google guys, they kept SU fresh and new. Here at SCF they are also our greatest asset as they generate many new members as well as returning ones looking for new ruby's, updates and even requesting scripts.

But on the other hand lets not be too harsh on Google, they are trying and they are listening. There is no way they can completely please everyone all the time. The last update which was completely free (very important point) took a lot of work from many dedicated professionals. They firstly had to consider what they can achieve, what the market wants and also what their company direction demands and come up with a product that could make everyone happy, not easy, but I think they did a sterling job.
We asked for speed... we got it, we asked for back button...we got it, we asked for Layout dimensioning...we got it, we asked for UV tools...we never got it yet, we asked for 64 bit support...we also never got that yet. But do you not see they did try? and they still are trying, they are present on this forum, they answer questions, they help with issues...they are listening.
I'm fortunate and honored to be part of the beta team and I really wish y'all could see the effort they put into fixes, problems, new solutions, supporting the ruby guys that we all love (yes they too respect these guys and will go out of their way to help where they can, in the last release they were very active in making sure that the update supported all the cool plug-ins we have grown to love, many of our ruby guys are also beta testers and they have a great working relationship with the Google guys)

not to stir the the pot, but i really think your being FAR to friendly to google. they don't deserve that friendliness and customer loyalty. but if your happy with google and where googles taken (or not taken more likely) sketchup, then thats cool. but it seems there are quite a few 'unsatisfied' customers.

xrok1

i think unsatisfied is a little harsh, its more like disappointed in the missed potential. its like your kid getting accepted into Harvard but choosing community college instead.

Gaieus

@align said:

it seems there are quite a few 'unsatisfied' customers.

And also millions of happy people using SU.

jeff hammond

i dunno, when i hear these types of complaints, i basically read them as 'please bloat the hell out of the most widely accessible 3D software available'

just using your lathe.rb example -- i have no need for a lathe tool and i'd rather it not be standard in sketchup.. now do that with the thousand or so other plugins out there and see what a mess you're creating?

just a rough guess is that maybe 10% of all SU users actually have a plugin installed and use it. If i just picked up sketchup and was faced with 100 tools/functions beyond what is currently there, i'd be way turned off and probably seek out another 3d app (which i'd be just as turned off about).

that's the beauty of sketchup -- it's simplicity (and even then, it's still sort of complicated and requires a certain commitment to learn).. it's a great introduction for people into 3D land and can either act as a launching point into other more complicated apps -or- it's current tools can be fully utilized for many full-scale professional jobs.

keeping the plugins separate allows for full on customization of the app once you learn the base SU or realize the need for a certain operation not included in the original install.

i agree with Jim when he says "Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback."
if anything, maybe they can provide more for the writers to work with or some sort of standard checklist/debuggers/installers to help the scripters put out fully functioning cross platform plugins in an easier to obtain method..
but honestly, i don't think SU in general would be at all improved if it came standard with say 'soap skin&bubble'.. i do think it would be greatly improved if higher poly counts were allowed though.

Ecuadorian

K.I.S.S. principle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Ironically, there are threads in other 3D app's forums where some members say "we should be able to do X and Y in a simple way, just like SketchUp."

There are some talented modelers out there that have made "Jack bird" amazing things with vanilla SketchUp, without installing a single script.

Align

@unknownuser said:

i dunno, when i hear these types of complaints, i basically read them as 'please bloat the hell out of the most widely accessible 3D software available'

just using your lathe.rb example -- i have no need for a lathe tool and i'd rather it not be standard in sketchup.. now do that with the thousand or so other plugins out there and see what a mess you're creating?

just a rough guess is that maybe 10% of all SU users actually have a plugin installed and use it. If i just picked up sketchup and was faced with 100 tools/functions beyond what is currently there, i'd be way turned off and probably seek out another 3d app (which i'd be just as turned off about).

that's the beauty of sketchup -- it's simplicity (and even then, it's still sort of complicated and requires a certain commitment to learn).. it's a great introduction for people into 3D land and can either act as a launching point into other more complicated apps -or- it's current tools can be fully utilized for many full-scale professional jobs.

keeping the plugins separate allows for full on customization of the app once you learn the base SU or realize the need for a certain operation not included in the original install.

i agree with Jim when he says "Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback."
if anything, maybe they can provide more for the writers to work with or some sort of standard checklist/debuggers/installers to help the scripters put out fully functioning cross platform plugins in an easier to obtain method..
but honestly, i don't think SU in general would be at all improved if it came standard with say 'soap skin&bubble'.. i do think it would be greatly improved if higher poly counts were allowed though.

i think you called ME out. yeah theres A LOT of plugins to acquire. and its overwhelming. you make me feel much better when you say, requires a certain commitment to learn. cause i think of sketchup as a totally 'can do no wrong' software. when in reality, its DOES have a learning curve. realizing this gives me room for error and understanding that its going to take some time before i can completely grasp sketchup and also its plugins. i need to do some serious reading. note solos sig...

david.

@unknownuser said:

i dunno, when i hear these types of complaints, i basically read them as 'please bloat the hell out of the most widely accessible 3D software available'

just using your lathe.rb example -- i have no need for a lathe tool and i'd rather it not be standard in sketchup.. now do that with the thousand or so other plugins out there and see what a mess you're creating?

just a rough guess is that maybe 10% of all SU users actually have a plugin installed and use it. If i just picked up sketchup and was faced with 100 tools/functions beyond what is currently there, i'd be way turned off and probably seek out another 3d app (which i'd be just as turned off about).

that's the beauty of sketchup -- it's simplicity (and even then, it's still sort of complicated and requires a certain commitment to learn).. it's a great introduction for people into 3D land and can either act as a launching point into other more complicated apps -or- it's current tools can be fully utilized for many full-scale professional jobs.

keeping the plugins separate allows for full on customization of the app once you learn the base SU or realize the need for a certain operation not included in the original install.

i agree with Jim when he says "Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback."
if anything, maybe they can provide more for the writers to work with or some sort of standard checklist/debuggers/installers to help the scripters put out fully functioning cross platform plugins in an easier to obtain method..
but honestly, i don't think SU in general would be at all improved if it came standard with say 'soap skin&bubble'.. i do think it would be greatly improved if higher poly counts were allowed though.

Personally, I have no desire to have 100+ plugins on my toolbar (although, I've seen those that do, and it's quite funny). However, it would be nice to have some of the basic functionality of a few like Fredoscale. IMO, those are truly basic tools, but they're not built in.

Respectfully, comments like yours give the impression that you're not too familiar with what it takes to create some of these 3rd party plugins. While Google SU Ruby API has exposed many parts of the SU architecture, it has not exposed certain parts that would make some these types of plugins much simpler to develop. Then, there is the Webdialog issue. From my experience, Webdialogs are not really a plugin developer's favorite tool in developing a UI for a plugin. Also, when you're depending on 3rd party solutions, you tend to lose consistency in the UI since there is no overall guiding direction.

@unknownuser said:

i agree with Jim when he says "Let the SketchUp people continue to focus on improving the core, and let the community develop the tools, and provide feedback."

By that logic, SU should never add another tool to the SU tool set. That business model doesn't seem very innovative.

jeff hammond

@david. said:

Personally, I have no desire to have 100+ plugins on my toolbar (although, I've seen those that do, and it's quite funny). However, it would be nice to have some of the basic functionality of a few like Fredoscale. IMO, those are truly basic tools, but they're not built in.

right, and i think things like arc cpoint finder, draw cline, arc: center & 2 points are very basic tools too that should be included .. so where does it end and who gets to decide? what works for you probably wouldn't work for me or them etc..

certain parts of fredoscale or even jointpushpull can very quickly lead to some disastrous results if used in an unskilled or uninformed way.. i think there's a good reason for leaving plugins like that out of SU.. that said, i do think parts of them should be implemented if they're simply additions to preexisting tools.. one should be able to use regular push/pull on a cylinder for instance instead of using JPP.

@unknownuser said:

Respectfully, comments like yours give the impression that you're not too familiar with what it takes to create some of these 3rd party plugins. While Google SU Ruby API has exposed many parts of the SU architecture, it has not exposed certain parts that would make some these types of plugins much simpler to develop. Then, there is the Webdialog issue. From my experience, Webdialogs are not really a plugin developer's favorite tool in developing a UI for a plugin. Also, when you're depending on 3rd party solutions, you tend to lose consistency in the UI since there is no overall guiding direction.

you're right, i'm not too familar with what it takes to create a plugin but from hanging around here for a while, i can tell a lot of hard work goes into it and there aren't always clear cut steps to achieve one's goals + it seems writers often have to find unnecessary workarounds when they should in fact be provided with more from google..
that's what i was trying to get across when i said "if anything, maybe they can provide more for the writers to work with or some sort of standard checklist/debuggers/installers to help the scripters put out fully functioning cross platform plugins in an easier to obtain method.."

@unknownuser said:

By that logic, SU should never add another tool to the SU tool set. That business model doesn't seem very innovative.

for one, i don't think my logic states that su should never have a new tool added.. i'm simply saying that i'd be perfectly happy if google focused more on improving the core functionality of SU instead of trying to add some bells and whistles..
as far as business models go, i really (really) don't think google is trying to make money from sketchup in the same way as most other 3D apps.. Bonzai, for instance, in a business sense are interested in selling as many copies of their software as possible and seek to make their profits based on direct sales alone.. i'm not so sure that's the case with google and sketchup.

xrok1

i'd settle for SU's basic toolset being up to par with current 3D toolsets, or even just working th3e way we all know or wish they should/could. AND get rid of that fu!@$#@$ toolbar bullshit already!
i mean really, how longs it been???????????????

(i just noticed that puking emot looks way to happy about things)

jeff hammond

discaimer: the following post by me is a joke

@xrok1 said:

AND get rid of that fu!@$#@$ toolbar bullshit already!
i mean really, how longs it been???????????????

hmm, sounds like a great basis for an 'i'm a mac.. and i'm a pc' commercial..

tim

Do any of you people have the faintest idea how much work it takes to maintain and improve a piece of software like SU?

I've done complex software for years and I've also done a moderately complex house design in SU/LO. Apparently quite well, according to various people. In my opinion software is typically one to two orders of magnitude more complex. Bear that in mind next time you feel tempted to slag off someone.

Fascinating and wonderful as some of the plugins are, don't forget that without the large amount of work required to provide SU and the external plugin api there wouldn't be any of them.

xrok1

Tim, if your not going to take this seriously...

the make excuses for google thread is 2 doors over on your left.

have you looked at Moi3D or 3DBrush or Indigo lately; complex software, one developer tons of respectable, timely progress!

jeff hammond

@kwistenbiebel said:

Improving the core off course is primordial.
But after that, yes, new feautures are3 very much welcomed!!

NURBS, better animation, you name it....

yes, i would welcome nurbs very much (though at the moment, i'm actually enjoying learning rhino and am kind of excited about fully learning a 3d app other than sketchup)

nurbs, UV mapping, more powerful surface editing and transformation tools, all of it.. i surely welcome it and think this could be a great way to distinguish between pro & free versions.. thing is, i'm ready for that stuff as i've been working with sketchup since version4 so i'm not too sure how i'd feel about it if i were just beginning.
that said, i highly doubt google is going to take SU in this direction and i'm not going to sit around complaining & waiting for it to happen while being fully aware that the tools i now need are already out there..

[edit] and just to clarify my stance a little more, i think it would be very stupid for google to add -for example- subdivision capabilities to sketchup when i can't smoothly work through a model containing only 25,000 polygons without grouping & hiding etc.. same can be said for many of the plugins out there that are capable of adding to the poly count rather quickly.

kwistenbiebel

Improving the core off course is primordial.
But after that, yes, new features are very much welcomed!!

NURBS, better animation, you name it....

Alan Fraser

It’s horses for courses. SU is used in a huge number of ways; but as Jeff says, many of the plugins can rapidly lead to a vast number of faces. Maybe you can live with this if all you are doing is hobby-modelling a single mesh or designing a single piece of furniture.
However many people are using it for the purpose for which it was originally designed…an architectural napkin program. Whilst some may drool over beautifully detailed models of vehicles, furniture and the like, for others…while appreciating the skill involved…such models are totally useless, especially if you need to import them by the shedload into an architectural model that’s already heavy with just the architecture.

Personally, I’m quite happy to have all the add-on functionality provided via Ruby script (and pay for that, if necessary)…just as long as Google keeps its end up and concentrates on raising the workable poly count and generally speeding up the program. Despite Sketchuping all day every day, on a wide range of content, I actually don’t use more than a tiny handful of scripts on anything like a regular basis…so it would be largely a matter of indifference to me whether they were in the program or not.

SU really ought to have some decent UV mapping by this stage, however…although, again, I can see why this would not be important to someone designing kitchen cabinets who merely needs to apply some wood and formica textures to basically flat surfaces.

kwistenbiebel

@unknownuser said:

@kwistenbiebel said:

Improving the core off course is primordial.
But after that, yes, new feautures are3 very much welcomed!!

NURBS, better animation, you name it....

yes, i would welcome nurbs very much (though at the moment, i'm actually enjoying learning rhino and am kind of excited about fully learning a 3d app other than sketchup)

nurbs, UV mapping, more powerful surface editing and transformation tools, all of it.. i surely welcome it and think this could be a great way to distinguish between pro & free versions.. thing is, i'm ready for that stuff as i've been working with sketchup since version4 so i'm not too sure how i'd feel about it if i were just beginning.
that said, i highly doubt google is going to take SU in this direction and i'm not going to sit around complaining & waiting for it to happen while being fully aware that the tools i now need are already out there..

[edit] and just to clarify my stance a little more, i think it would be very stupid for google to add -for example- subdivision capabilities to sketchup when i can't smoothly work through a model containing only 25,000 polygons without grouping & hiding etc.. same can be said for many of the plugins out there that are capable of adding to the poly count rather quickly.

I fullheartedly agree. It is a matter of 'first things first'.
Fixing what needs fixing and taking it from there.