Disappearing objects issue

mac1 · 31 Jul 2009, 14:34

@chris fullmer said:

Here is how to do a glbal scale using the tape measure tool.

Measure an object with the heasing tape tool. The side of the desk would be a good object. Lets say it measures as 1.5m. Right as you finsih measuring it, type 15m and hit enter (that is 10 times larger). It will scale everything in the model up by 10 times. That is a global scale.

If you do that inside a group or component, the scaling will only affect the group or component that you are editing, not the entire model.

Chris

Thanks Chris for your effort to respond
I have read page 620 of the user manual and know the tape tool is supposed to be used for global scale and the scale tool for relative scale and know how to use both tools. The question in my mind is this: I can scale a total group using the scale tool and things seem to work fine but, for this problem, that does not seem to be the case. If that is done for this case the cited problem comes up even when it is done in the context of the group ( when I double click on the winnebz model). This model has a nested component ( nose) and if the operation is done after exploding this then you can use the scale tool. Using the scale tool the reset scale menu is active but not if one uses the tape tool so there is a very important but subtle difference that should be throughly explained for the user. After a fairly extensive search for info on scaling pg 620 comment in the user manual was the only remotely relevant comment I could find.
If the group or component I am scaling is the total model then??
I opened a question in the group help to see if someone has further clarification.

Coronel · 31 Jul 2009, 14:50

@unknownuser said:

If the group or component I am scaling is the total model then??
I opened a question in the group help to see if someone has further clarification.

I agree with you, that's why I was not afraid of using the scale tool in my case.

Chris Fullmer · 31 Jul 2009, 15:56

post removed pending further testing

Chris Fullmer · 31 Jul 2009, 16:49

ok, I've been playing with the winniebz-1 model. Its possessed. Definitely something to do with the scale of the model, and the model's internal scale. No way to access that though. It feels like there is a tiny piece of hidden geometry miles away from poohbear, but I never could find anything like that. Perhaps copy and paste him into a clean model might help?

Chris

museummaker · 31 Jul 2009, 17:06

I looked at the possessed model, very strange.

I exploded all groups, scaled him up by 100, went to purge and fix problems.

Got this:? Not sure what it means.

Maybe Poo is terminal?

EDIT: He seems fixed after the above.

Coronel · 31 Jul 2009, 17:48

@unknownuser said:

Perhaps copy and paste him into a clean model might help?

This one is already a copy in a new document

I'm using now the document named "winnie2", my original backup. I fixed the scale problem but still It's driving me crazy with the intersections. Using bootools I'm getting weird results and sometimes SU is fixing the model.

Each time I finish the intersection of a new group and try to do the next one it says the one or the second group is not a valid solid.
Invalid? I'm invalid, not you, stupid bear!

mac1 · 31 Jul 2009, 18:35

@chris fullmer said:

ok, I've been playing with the winniebz-1 model. Its possessed. Definitely something to do with the scale of the model, and the model's internal scale. No way to access that though. It feels like there is a tiny piece of hidden geometry miles away from poohbear, but I never could find anything like that. Perhaps copy and paste him into a clean model might help?

Chris

Chris
I tried copy to new SU and still had same problem, also hide the winne, selected all , then a delete to try and delete stray points but that did not work either., I think the key is when you explode the nested nose group and then scale the problem does not appear and this is some way related to the scale tool scales in relation to the grip and anchor and not the model its self so info for the basic model is retained some why hence the reset scale menu active.

Note: You may notice when I did this with an incremental scale of .1 within the winnie context ( with nose exploded), then I would save then group again to see if problem came back. Doing this several times without the nose exploded the problem occurred and if you re-scale the huge model came back. Once the nose was exploded and a repeat of the process allowed me to scale all the may down to the ~75cm box level.
I did the incremental approach because in my alleged mine I have the notion of reading somewhere the scale tool has a limit of 20 to .01 but have not been able to find this so this may have not been necessary.

mac1 · 1 Aug 2009, 02:04

@coronel said:

@unknownuser said:

Perhaps copy and paste him into a clean model might help?

This one is already a copy in a new document

I'm using now the document named "winnie2", my original backup. I fixed the scale problem but still It's driving me crazy with the intersections. Using bootools I'm getting weird results and sometimes SU is fixing the model.

Each time I finish the intersection of a new group and try to do the next one it says the one or the second group is not a valid solid.
Invalid? I'm invalid, not you, stupid bear!

coronel
One more suggestion now that you have the scale problem fixed.
Re-size your model up say maybe 500x, try your intersections at that size and then re-size back down when finished.
Rational: 1)You did that the first time with the scale tool and it worked?; 2) There have been many postings about SU having problems with edges in the few mm range and maybe that is what is happening now and was previously.

Chris Fullmer · 1 Aug 2009, 04:05

It definitely sounds like a weird issue caused by tiny geometry. I ran a lot of tests on it and found it has 15 edges that come in at ~0.0mm. I delete all those, but the problem still persisted. So it looks like scaling way up ius the best solution. Its quite odd though.

Chris

Coronel · 1 Aug 2009, 10:13

@unknownuser said:

One more suggestion now that you have the scale problem fixed.
Re-size your model up say maybe 500x, try your intersections at that size and then re-size back down when finished.
Rational: 1)You did that the first time with the scale tool and it worked?; 2) There have been many postings about SU having problems with edges in the few mm range and maybe that is what is happening now and was previously.

Yes I did it that way with the faulty docs before the problem begins.
Now I made a re-size using the tape method and after some attempts I finally could intersect the last arm, leg, and face but I was getting some opened faces that I need to close manually. Here it is:

Now is time to triangulate the model and try the sculpture tools plugin to polish the shape

winnie.skp

mac1 · 1 Aug 2009, 15:33

@coronel said:

@unknownuser said:

One more suggestion now that you have the scale problem fixed.
Re-size your model up say maybe 500x, try your intersections at that size and then re-size back down when finished.
Rational: 1)You did that the first time with the scale tool and it worked?; 2) There have been many postings about SU having problems with edges in the few mm range and maybe that is what is happening now and was previously.

Yes I did it that way with the faulty docs before the problem begins.

Now I made a re-size using the tape method and after some attempts I finally could intersect the last arm, leg, and face but I was getting some opened faces that I need to close manually. Here it is:

Now is time to triangulate the model and try the sculpture tools plugin to polish the shape

See you still have problems with the two eyes and nose. Suggest the following sequence, this could have been done back on your orginal winnie.skp model. Select the eye(nose)=>explode=>immediately then make it a group. After this operation( for each group) you will notice the re-set scale menu is grayed out for that group. This effectively brings the scale of these components to the level of the rest of your model vs presently really small so when you double click them things do not get weird. Tried this on your original posted winnie.skp model and it works! So on your original model you would go through this sequence, then do your re-size, I did this by drawing a line ref to the top of winnie's head, them used the tape tool, repeat the above sequence to bring the groups to the model ref size and you should be good to go. . It looks to me this sequence results in the edges for the arms etc being much better behaved?

Coronel · 2 Aug 2009, 00:53

You are right mac1
Geometry is not my priority at this moment as I told you in my PM. I will try different possibilities to give the model a natural look before the final render in SU.

Thank you very much, I'm impressed by the help received from the forum.