Render test, please...tomsdesk 2.5d trees?

tomsdesk · 2 Mar 2009, 17:37

Hey all,
I need a big favor: thanks in advance. I'm getting a lot of questions concerning how my little trees work in various render apps...which I have absolutely no experience using and little understanding of how they work to boot.

I'm hoping I (and others) can get a little help understanding how these work in the render apps you use. If you would, thanks so much, please post your tests here along with any explaination you'd care to share about how you did what you did to make them look swell :`) I think you have to explode the leaf-bunch png images and turn off my shadow layers for most of the render apps...? There are a couple of tree construction images on the website that should help...? (Also see this great plugin by Thomthom: http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=17154 )

Attached is a skippy containing a couple of examples I've already posted for you to try out. The images show the image HSB and transparency settings I've used in the Material Editor, please let me know what of these you change for your test. (Also find the alpha channel images needed in Vray...and other apps?)

Or :`) the first bundle of trees have gone live thanks to the magnanimousity of Pete(Solo): http://solosplace.com/tomsdesk.aspx Hope you like...and use those instead!

Thanks for your support, and best, Tom.

rendertest.skp

tomsdesk · 3 Mar 2009, 17:00

To start things off: here's a couple of images out of Vray thomthom was kind enough to send me...I was quite pleased by them!

As I understand it, he exploded the leaf-bunch image png (only have to do that once...in one component) then hide the 4 edges of the face. To get the transparency to work he did some magic in Vray with the alpha channel images I now provide with the trees.

thomthom · 3 Mar 2009, 17:15

I'll post full set of instructions, gotchas and screenshots for V-Ray shortly.

jhagan421 · 4 Mar 2009, 05:08

Render tests in Podium. I exploded the images as suggested, but not getting shadows to work.

tomsdesk · 4 Mar 2009, 15:21

Thom, thanks...I'm sure that will be very helpful.

Josh, thanks for adding podium to this thread...I don't understand the shadows, I've seen them on the ground before? Maybe someone else can help us, thanks.

Speaking of shadows: is there a way in podium to have the leaf-bunch faces not accept shadows? If so, I sure would like to see such since I'm thinking that would reduce the planar effect...? Also, if they do look better rendered that way, can I just add that setting to my tree construction and still have it work that way in podium? Since nothing inside face-me components receive a shadow in SU I never gave it a thought...till now.

jhagan421 · 4 Mar 2009, 19:08

Tom

Glad to add what I can. I forgot the mention (it was a bit late last night) that the trees really look great (IMO)

The shadow thing bugs me because I saw test from Solo and from Sepo. There are shadows but very weak. You or someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the image explode plug that Thomthom posted supposed to correct the shadows of the pngs in SU as well??

@unknownuser said:

is there a way in podium to have the leaf-bunch faces not accept shadows?

In podium if you set an Omni light entity to have 0% opacity it will not CAST shadows - presumeably this would be the case for any object, but I've only used this (and only thought of it interms of eliminating double shadows - that said I don't think that is where you were going. If the endgame is to achieve results like the Vray image posted by Thomtom - that is what is suposed to happen with alpha pngs in Podium as well - I'm not sure why it did not work in my tests .

tomsdesk · 4 Mar 2009, 20:07

Josh, I was thinking the leaf-bunch faces created when you explode the image pngs would still be set to cast a shadow, but set not to receive them...then they would only cast on the ground, not each other. You can do this in SU, and in LightUp too I believe, but I don't know if such works in other render apps...?

thomthom · 4 Mar 2009, 20:11

@tomsdesk said:

Josh, I was thinking the leaf-bunch faces created when you explode the image pngs would still be set to cast a shadow, but set not to receive them...then they would only cast on the ground, not each other. You can do this in SU, and in LightUp too I believe, but I don't know if such works in other render apps...?

That doesn't work in V-Ray for Sketchup. At least not in the current version. Might in the future.
Sorry for still not posting, but it takes some time to assemble the images, and this week I've got a few things to attend to. There's something in the way that V-Ray handles colorized SU materials which I feel I need to clarify a bit.

richcat · 4 Mar 2009, 21:52

Worked in IRendernXt, just had to explode png textures, but did not have to turn off shadows.

jhagan421 · 5 Mar 2009, 00:06

As in Vray - podium shadows cannot be "turned off". I will do more testing, but probably not tonight. I may post to the podium forum for some help as well (unless pete or sid have beaten me to it.)

EDIT: - I'm a moron and forgot (actually I didn't realize) a very elemental part of exterior rendering.

tomsdesk · 10 Mar 2009, 03:46

Thanks, Guys,
for your continued help. Starting to look like the leaf-like pngs render better than the painterly...? Here's a couple from the new bundles now available: love it if you could try them out too for comparison, thank you very much.
Best, Tom.

Richcat, have you tried them full opaque, or just with the transparency I set to begin with?

Josh, "elemental part"...? (Shadows look good, huh, wish I could have them in SU for less than mega-bytes!)

(Hey, Stuart, you still out there jammin' with K? :`)

CDfreebee.skp

tomsdesk · 10 Mar 2009, 14:10

Oops again: here are the alpha's:

lz2008 · 11 Mar 2009, 08:39

nice!!!thanks!!!

thomthom · 11 Mar 2009, 09:10

A quick V-Ray test:

I hid the fake SU shadow layers
I exploded all Images using this plugin: http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=17154
Then added the alpha map to the diffuse layer for the leaf materials
Since the textures are colourized in SU, V-Ray for Sketchup creates a Blend Map for the diffuse material. This will make the colours look a bit flat, so I change the blend ratio from 0.5 to 0.0.

thomthom · 11 Mar 2009, 09:14

@jhagan421 said:

Tom

Glad to add what I can. I forgot the mention (it was a bit late last night) that the trees really look great (IMO)

The shadow thing bugs me because I saw test from Solo and from Sepo. There are shadows but very weak. You or someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the image explode plug that Thomthom posted supposed to correct the shadows of the pngs in SU as well??

@unknownuser said:

is there a way in podium to have the leaf-bunch faces not accept shadows?

In podium if you set an Omni light entity to have 0% opacity it will not CAST shadows - presumeably this would be the case for any object, but I've only used this (and only thought of it interms of eliminating double shadows - that said I don't think that is where you were going. If the endgame is to achieve results like the Vray image posted by Thomtom - that is what is suposed to happen with alpha pngs in Podium as well - I'm not sure why it did not work in my tests .

You might not see strong shadows if you got your sun set to around noon. You get that effect in V-Ray as well. The sun it straight over the model and doesn't cast very strong shadows. Try to adjust to an earlier or later time of day.

My plugin just explodes all Image elements into regular faces as V-Ray can't render Image elements.

sepo · 13 Mar 2009, 12:48

I think jhagan421 was rendering without sun on , only GI. There is no problem to render those trees after exploding.

jhagan421 · 13 Mar 2009, 19:12

Hi all.
I did get the shadows to work, - see post of March 4.
I had the shadows turned off. I didn't realize you could do that. i don't do much exterior especially rendering
Tom the new bunches look great
Josh

honoluludesktop · 13 Mar 2009, 23:20

Tom asked that I move this pm here:

I asked:

"In order to have the widest market appeal, shouldn't you cutout the transparent (alpha) surfaces so that all render software will easily cast shadows? Isn't this how most 2d trees and people are built?"

Tried your tree with su2pov3. The resulting render changed the colors and included the alpha rectangles (thought that pov had alpha support). IDX render also failed (alpha support slated for next release).

He said:

"The only reason, and a big one, is the poly-count...if I did what you suggest (and I did began that way) these trees (which are made up of several, some a bunch, of png images) would slow SU pretty fast (now you can pack a hundred of them in without slowing down too badly).

On the color render issues...I've noticed that too and haven't a clue? Maybe posting the question on this thread will attract some help from the others (which would serve to help me as well)."

My question:

OK, Just what consist of a poly-count? I thought it was just the number of surfaces. Are edges part of the poly-count? I have a 12" strip of 2d grass with about 300 edges, could that be a problem if I had say, 100 instances of it in a model?

remus · 13 Mar 2009, 23:32

Lots of edges slows down SU a lot, so yes having many instances of your grass component would slow SU down.

Ive got a feeling welding all the edges together can help, though.

tomsdesk · 14 Mar 2009, 00:23

Wes, sorry I wasn't too clear: yes indeed, as Remus says, edges do make a difference. Let's pick one of my trees that has 10 pngs (high average). Each png has approx 400 leaves (low average). Each leaf would need an edge made up of at least 10 segments to look as nice as the alpha cut. That's 44,000 more edges and faces per tree...plus, all are now casting shadows in SU. It gets to be a drag really fast...just like a 3D tree, and why the 2.5d was developed.

I too hope someone can post a solution for the color fade issue...?