Why vote Obama?
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How things backfire, first the Neocons use the word 'Liberal' to scare the masses, then everyone is a 'terrorist' now it's 'socialist' what's next 'racist' or 'communist'?
repeating a name over and over actually desensitizes it and the people are bored with all this right wing name calling, It won't stick.
McCain also signed onto the bailout .... is he too a socialist now?
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Dear Ron,
Are you endorsing that statement, or posting it as a warning?
If by 'need' is meant a living wage and equal opportunities with access to good health care, then it sounds about right to me.
I have noted a number of postings railing about paying taxes. Generally, and in almost any country you can name, the rich pay a lower percentage of their gross income than the average wage earner. Just think of all those tax lawyers helping the rich figure out new and novel ways to ease their tax burden.
As John Dunn once famously wrote 'No man is an island', and the prosperity of our communities 'as a whole' add to our own prosperity by way of better job opportunities, lower crime rates etc. How taxes are used is more a political issue and so remains, to a small degree, the choice of the electorate. I tend to favour the Swedish model of taxation and care in the community over the American model of 'winner takes all', which is sadly epitomised by the remuneration of Leyman Brothers'Chief Executive Richard S. Fuld Jr over the past seven years (somewhere in the region of 480 million USD).
Kind regards,
Bob -
If McCain pushes this 'socialist' rhetoric too hard he may just end up being the Sheriff of Nottingham and Obama end up looking like Robin Hood.
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Bob, as I said in an earlier post, the quote from Karl Marx defines Obama's tax plan. Nearly half of the 95% Obama says will benefit from his tax plan don't even pay taxes! This is socialism and I oppose it vehemently.
Pete, I said before how disappointed I am that McCain voted for the bailout. And, yes, his vote does display a socialistic tendency and this why I will not vote for him. After all my huffing and puffing against Obama, I do have significant issues with McCain. However, my general political leanings are more aligned with McCain than Obama.
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Well if the state end up owning some banks than Bush will be first socialist president US had... To be honest there is nothing wrong with state helping unfortunate ones....Scandinavians made descent model out of it. Healthcare for everyone even when not run prefectly (like our NHS in UK) is more desirable than none...In UK on both side of the house (or rather 3 sides) they all agree that strong NHS is something which all of us want here. Also I believe that top guys should pay more. Some of them pay less taxes than me and that is not right when they make like millions. Selfishness is not way forward for the humankind.
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@sepo said:
Selfishness is not way forward for the humankind.
I agree wholeheartedly with El Sid.
(Yeah ... dumbest pun ever.) -
Dear Ron,
Socialism doesn't have to follow an extreme model, such as post-war Chinese communism. The concepts of socialism are no different from the precepts of most religions, and specifically Christianity, so why does the word socialism raise your hackles? For example: 'Do as you would be done by', is a good socialist concept. To my mind, and relating to employment, it means paying a man/woman a decent hourly rate for their labour. This is evidently not the case for many developed countries as those on the lower rungs of society's prosperity ladder will testify.
I think we need to agree to disagree.
Kind regards,
Bob -
OBAMA HOOD
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I hope the republicans who are spouting hateful "anti-American" retoric are prepared for the backlash coming. Here is a congresswoman from my own state who is implying that there are democrats who are anti-American and the media should investigate this. In my opinion this has gone too far. If you don't agree with some republicans you are a leftist, socialist, terrorist, anti-American... this hate-speak has got to stop. This only feeds and empowers the radical fringe who will use it as mental justification for violence.
http://www.dccc.org/page/content/bachmannvideo1/
here is what Colin Powell had to say about this topic
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/19/sots.powell.obama.cnn
seems to me the rich and powerful are doing anything they can to hold on to power.
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What's scary is she actually believes the crap she says.
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@watkins said:
Dear Ron,
Socialism doesn't have to follow an extreme model, such as post-war Chinese communism. The concepts of socialism are no different from the precepts of most religions, and specifically Christianity, so why does the word socialism raise your hackles? For example: 'Do as you would be done by', is a good socialist concept. To my mind, and relating to employment, it means paying a man/woman a decent hourly rate for their labour. This is evidently not the case for many developed countries as those on the lower rungs of society's prosperity ladder will testify.
I think we need to agree to disagree.
Kind regards,
BobBob, I live my life by the Golden Rule you mention: "Do unto other as you would have then do unto you." I don't see this as socialism, but more of a moral guideline. A way to live one's life. If this means you give money to the beggar on the street, fine. Or to donate your time/money to a charity. Or to be just plain friendly. The entire world could benefit from this moral tenent.
A decent wage is important and necessary for any society to allow it's citizens to progress up the economic ladder. Most low wage earners are transient. They don't stay at this level of earning for very long. The desire to improve oneself motivates one to seek other endeavors, to improve their lot in life. I believe this is easier to accomplish under a capitalistic system than a socialistic system specifically because of the relative tax rates. What would motivate anyone to pursue earning more money if the tax rate is 75% (as in Stinkie's example in another post)?
Look at how much money the US government pisses away each and every year. We could afford a national health care system under our current tax rate plan.
I think we can almost agree to agree.
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Dear Ron,
Nicely put. I would write more, but its time for bed and I have work and taxes to pay tomorrow.
Kind regards,
Bob -
@sepo said:
Well if the state end up owning some banks than Bush will be first socialist president US had... To be honest there is nothing wrong with state helping unfortunate ones....Scandinavians made descent model out of it. Healthcare for everyone even when not run prefectly (like our NHS in UK) is more desirable than none...In UK on both side of the house (or rather 3 sides) they all agree that strong NHS is something which all of us want here. Also I believe that top guys should pay more. Some of them pay less taxes than me and that is not right when they make like millions. Selfishness is not way forward for the humankind.
How true it is that Bush will be known as the first republican president to tend toward socialism! The US does as good a job of helping the unfortunate as any other country in the world, national health care notwithstanding.
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Ron
I have to say having political conversations with you is pleasant. I think the world would be a better place if we could all discuss political issues in a civil manner.
Look at how much money the US government pisses away each and every year. We could afford a national health care system under our current tax rate plan.<<<
10 billion a month in Iraq could go a long way towards a national health care system.
I agree with you that a socialist society my be a dis-incentive to improving your current economic situation. I used to work at a gas-station convenience store. People would come in and use a 1 dollar food stamp to buy a 3 Cent piece of gum to get the 97 cents of real change. They would do this several times until they had enough change to buy a pack of cigarettes, Then they would do it again and again until they had enough money for a six pack of beer. They would do this while they had three children in tow who looked like they could use a square meal. I think the welfare system back then was broken. I'm not aware of what system is in place today but I would agree with your assessment that there are undesirable aspects to a socialistic society. I'm sure there are undesirable aspects to any form of society.
Anyway It's nice to have pleasant and enlightening conversations with people that disagree with you. I hope the next few weeks that this philosophy wins and the dirty sleazy politics subsides.
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@watkins said:
Dear Ron,
Socialism doesn't have to follow an extreme model, such as post-war Chinese communism. The concepts of socialism are no different from the precepts of most religions, and specifically Christianity, so why does the word socialism raise your hackles? For example: 'Do as you would be done by', is a good socialist concept. To my mind, and relating to employment, it means paying a man/woman a decent hourly rate for their labour. This is evidently not the case for many developed countries as those on the lower rungs of society's prosperity ladder will testify.
I think we need to agree to disagree.
Kind regards,
BobSocialism, according to Marx (Karl, not Groucho), was the transitional step from capitalism to communism. It would be achieved via class struggle and a "proletarian revolution". For almost two decades, we've heard the class warfare arguments from the left - claiming the right wanted to cut funding to the social programs (which generally were lies, presumably intended to stir the lower economic classes into discontent), claiming that across-the-board tax cuts were "tax cuts for the rich", and other such inflamatory rhetoric. All that has set the stage for Obama and his presumed goal of revolution (if he continues to hold to the Alinsky model as much as he has to this point).
As for socialism's precepts being akin to Christianity, I'll definitely have to disagree with you on that. Christianity holds no teachings regarding "collective ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods", nor the creation of an egalitarian society (beyond spiritual equality). In fact, other than admonishments to obey the laws of government (insomuch as they do not contradict the laws of God), the only earthly hierarchical teachings are about church leadership and structure.
"Do as you would be done by" is not a socialist concept. Just ask those who were "done by" the revolutionaries in Russia or China.
It would be better stated, "do unto the wealthy as you perceive they have done unto you, by killing them and redistributing their wealth among your comrades." If you've not watched the movie "Pursuit of Happyness", please do. It shows what the drive of an individual to better himself can accomplish in a free-market society. That kind of opportunity is not available in a socialist system, because it means someone would stand out and be different from his peers. No, socialism is contrary to human nature.Having said that, I suspect that we, too, may need to "agree to disagree" - though I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on all this.
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@bellwells said:
A decent wage is important and necessary for any society to allow it's citizens to progress up the economic ladder. Most low wage earners are transient. They don't stay at this level of earning for very long. The desire to improve oneself motivates one to seek other endeavors, to improve their lot in life. I believe this is easier to accomplish under a capitalistic system than a socialistic system specifically because of the relative tax rates. What would motivate anyone to pursue earning more money if the tax rate is 75% (as in Stinkie's example in another post)?
Ron, as I pointed out already (and I just read a post of Jackson's in the same vein), money isn't the only reason people work. Everyone I know works his of hers proverbial butt off, despite the tax pressure over here. Self-acclompishment, you know. Like it or not, huff and puff all you like, the facts prove you wrong. As for the example I gave (which even to our standards is extreme), it was meant to show that I don't mind paying a lot of taxes, as I feel that I should contribute to the community I am a part of, rather than filling socks with wads of cash. Don't twist my words, it's bad form.
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Personally, I've never understood the logic of that phrase "High levels of taxation act as a disincentive to earn more."
They certainly act as a disappointment...but a disincentive?...how? Social responsibility aside, higher earnings are higher earnings.Sure there's the problem of a little more pushing you into a higher bracket, but that's just detail. Any policy-makers worth their salt could figure out solutions to cases like that, so that more earnings always equates to more in your pocket, not less.
It's always been my experience that the disincentive line is always pushed by people who are themselves high earners...and have no problem of lack of incentive to continue working their way through the higher tax bands.
It's just a con...either to keep the masses where they belong or so that they can keep more of those high earnings for themselves. I've seen plenty of people in various jobs take on masses more work and responsibility for pay rises that were hardly noticeable, People will go to extraordinary lengths to earn more if they need the money, or work just as hard for the sake of a job well-done if they don't. Either way, how much is deducted in tax is utterly irrelevant.
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Whoa...there is a lot of information in this conversation to sift through...I'll need to finish up some real work before I respond.
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It appears that if you don't like Obama's position on an issue, just wait for a news cycle or two, and he'll fall in line.
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