SketchUp Nurbs

[plot-paris]

before you read this, remind yourself, that it is placed in the Wish List - therefore only a wish (and admittedly one that is as far in an uncertain future as one can be).

I would like to have a SketchUp Nurbs modeller- that is I think of a modelling program that combines the easy workflow of our current SketchUp with the advantages of a nurbs modeller.

for those who are not farmiliar with nurbs (I myself don't know much about nurbs):
but basically there are two types of constructing geometry - with nurbs or with polygons.
the polygon-methodcreates forms (even organic ones), as the name says, with polygons. a circle for example consists of many segments that form the shape; the more segments, the smoother the form (SketchUp default for a circle is 24).
the nurbs-methoddefines forms via mathematical equations. for example "y=x" will create a straight line, "y=x^2" will draw a curve that moves upward with increasing speed.

a more complicated nurbs-curve is put together of several such equations. the point where one equation ends and a new one defines the further shape of the curve is called a control vertex

the big advantage of nurbs shapes is, that even with only 3 control points a curve will look perfectly smooth whereas a polygon shape needs loads of polygons to achieve the same effect.

I don't know if my idea makes sense. but I would love to see a program, where you start drawing, like you do in SketchUp. so if you draw four lines that build the outline of a rectangle, the face will be closed.

you can even push/pull faces.
but while the edges apear as ordinary polygons, they are in truth very simple (straight) nurbs curves.
if you now select an edge and activate the nurbs-edit mode, control-vertexes will appear, that allow you to manipulate the edge as a curve.
you can add or delete control-vertexes at will (as it is possible with fredo's BezierCurveTool).
like that you can create smooth, organic forms easily without giving up the advantages of SketchUps easy workflow.

so if you select an edge and move it without entering the nurbs-edit mode, it will behave as a stiff edge as we are used to it right now. (example on the left)

at the moment we can almost do nurbs-like modelling with all the great ruby plugins, like BezierCurves, Subdivide&Smooth or FreeFormDeformator.
but a real nurbs-based SketchUp version would be a wonderful tool - and we didn't need to worry about polycount that much

what do you think? great idea? bad idea?
would be delighted to hear your opinion, crits, suggestions...

[Mr S]

I think its a great idea.
But are you hoping for simplified version of Rhino?
I haven't used it myself but I'm guessing it has many of the features you mention.
Visit: http://gallery.rhino3d.com/Default.asp?language=&g=5

Regards
Mr S

[Stinkie]

A simplified version of Rhino would be MoI.

[kwistenbiebel]

Again a WONDERFUL SUGGESTION Jakob!
...and a very clear explanation of Nurbs as well.

Can't wait for one of our Ruby Gods to jump on it.

[pilou]

That yet exist Moment of Inspiration with Skp export
Maybe not with all that you show above

And maybe all that you describe is in the 7?

[kwistenbiebel]

@unknownuser said:

That yet exist Moment of Inspiration with Skp export
Maybe not with all that you show above

And maybe all that you describe is in the 7?

Hey Frenchy, as you have a direct line to the developer of MOI: wouldn't it be a nice idea to ask him to make a 'mini-MOI' as a commercial Sketchup plugin?

[plot-paris]

I imagine it as a merge between polygon- and nurbs workflow.

as far as I know at present you allways start with volumes or at least faces in nurbs modelling.

this new way makes use of SketchUps edge-based approach, which in my opinion makes it far easier to start sketching up rough shapes.
you still could use the program exactly the way you do right now.

basically SketchUp Nurbs creates geometry as we are allready used to it, but allways combined with a functionality that in some way the FreeFormDeformator gives us - only that you are able to dynamically add or delete FFD's control vertexes and apply changes directly to the geometry, rather than to a group.

but I definitely have to have a look at MOl, sounds very interesting...

[Stinkie]

@kwistenbiebel said:

wouldn't it be a nice idea to ask him to make a 'mini-MOI' as a commercial Sketchup plugin?

He'd be undermining the position of his core product if he did, wouldn't he?

[pilou]

@Kwist : Moi is yet like a mini "Plug" of Rhino and so many other
I don't believe that it can be more small but your suggestion is recorded

[plot-paris]

another short example for the difference between the current version and SketchUp nurbs. and remember. all the three cubes have been drawn with lines and extruded with push/pull, then the top face rotated 90 degrees arround the centre...

[remus]

Cool idea plot, and id certainly welcome it in SU, but i think its a bit more complicated than you make out.

One area that could get very sticky is changing between nurbs and polygons, as it is pretty much a one way street, if you want to maintain proper NURBS surfaces, anyway. I can imagine this causing a lot of annoyance, with models that you think are finished, have been converted in to polys but then need editing.

I reckon youd also need some very clear way of distinguishing between NURBS stuff and poly stuff, otherwise your models could get very confusing.

A quick thought: perhaps all nurbs surfaces could act as proxies, kind of like subd and smooth, and the proxy could be kept on a different layer, so basically all the geometry would be polys, but you would have NURBS surfaces controlling the polys.

[plot-paris]

oh, I am afraid I didn't make myself clear enough there:

all the geometry consists of nurbs - but SketchUp nurbs lets you manipulate it exactly the same way you handle polygons in the normal version.
so even an edge is in fact a simple nurbs-curve.

and unlike all nurbs-modellers I know, SUN will automatically create a face, when several nurbs-curves that lie in one plane, are closed...

[solo]

I like this thinking.

I remember when .... http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1782&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nurbs&start=30

[Hazza]

Of all the whining and b*tching I have read about SU (poly count, multi core this, 64 bit that... pffft) this suggestion is the only one that has made me look at the current version of SU as limited. This would put SU head and shoulders above where it is now.

I can imagine all sorts of possibilitys if Google implemented this. To the begineer SU would behave exactly as it does now. As they learned and grew they could add Nurbs control points and learn how to manipulate them.

[plot-paris]

of course now we could do with some detailed information about nurbs models. does anyone know how a nurbs model behaves in terms of filesize? or does it need more graphic card power, more/less ram, better processor?

my guess is that it behaves pretty much the same for rectangular objects but brings a huge improvement when entering the realms of curved (organic) shapes.
I may be completely wrong though

[pilou]

The native 3dm format of nurbs is very consuming!
But you can compress it with a 30% factor

Here a 3DM file (compressed 900 kb ) original 3 Megas : Test by Steph 3D
And the direct SKP file 20 000 polys (but you can ask more of few polys at the convertor as you want)
(compressed 1.5 mega original 3.7 megas)

Render Podium with Biebels' settings with any regulates except a reflection

@unknownuser said:

or does it need more graphic card power, more/less ram, better processor?

Depending of what nurbs progs you use
Moi can run on an very old comput and video card!!! more 5 years old! (SU works fine too !
So for this one Memory is the more imortant

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Test by Steph3D.net.zip

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testskp1.zip

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[RayOchoa]

@ Paris, you make this seam so easy. I love the way you do all these presentations which make one believe that that is actually possible.

[plot-paris]

thanks, Ray
unfortunately my vivid imagination doen't go beyond Photoshop. I have no idea of programming. and this SketchUp Nurbs (in short SUN ) is something not even our ruby masters can achieve for it is a completely different technology.

and I have to admit, I fear there is some huge drawback of nurbs. otherwise, why do polygons exist in the first place? they have to have their own advantages. I should do some reading about nurbs and then report here, what I understood - so the dream of SUN lives on

[Bruell]

Hi, I think this is a great idea, and should be doable.
My input to this tool is, to keep the models clean, you can start with NURBS then turn it to poly's, since the benefit of NURBS lyes in the creation. And I would like to see 2 rail sweeps and all the good stuff that comes with the NURBS tool set.

And with this could come real circles, that stay round when you zoom closer.

[plot-paris]

@bruell said:

And with this could come real circles, that stay round when you zoom closer.

and the great thing is the versatility. at the moment if you draw a circle in SketchUp and delete a segment of it, the information of the original curve is gone forever.
with SUN (SketchUp Nurbs) you not only the information of a circle is kept (because the formula for the curve is still that of a circle, except with manipulated start- and end-point), but you can even change a straight line you created with the LineTool turn into a circle by entering the NurbsEditMode:

so if you select any elliptic shape and click the "simplify" button often enough, it will eventually turn into a perfect circle. if you use the simplify too to "paint" on certain parts of a curve, only these parts will smooth out...

of course it is dangerous to loose yourself in the mere number of functions that could be useful - if you are not careful you end up having something like almighty Maya, that can do anything you want and takes years to master.
important is to keep the main interface simple, to reduce the number of tools as much as possible and keep them intuitive, like SketchUp did with the copy function - instead of introducing a seperate tool they integrated it into the move tool. this approach has to be kept in mind when shaping SketchUp Nurbs.