Rendering software comparison
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Can You post your model. I would like to ask one of our masters to render it.
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This is a difficult task to compare rendering software. I think it may be a better idea to have 1 model, with 1 view, expectation on creating the same materials look, and have everyone render it out using whatever they have at thier disposal.
I use VUE (haven't for about 1/2 year though) and I would think it would be appropriate to run this with normal settings, GI settings, GA settings and HDRI settings, with stock materials. Then set it up the way you would normally set it up, using your custom materials (trying to match what the model is supposed to be) and render your choice.
Times would be also needed for this experiment - how long to set up, how long to render etc.I have often found that the strenght of VUE is that your render will look about 60% done as soon as you import it, and if you sub materials in, that jumps to about 80%... squeezing the other 20%.. well, that isn't easy, as well - Vue takes a loooong time... I personally feel that Artlantis looks too plasticy, but I've seen some cool renders done by ... Andrew? that change my mind... (forgive me, I've been away for too long). Kerky has always seemed harsh and heavy to me, but I've also seen some amazing stuff there too... and I'm sure Podium looks great when a master works...
This just seems like a lot of work to put together, and at the end.. I don't know what we really will have for comparasin..
Shaun
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I entirely expected to get a lot of stick over this by people backing up their favourite software. But come on, insulting me isn't going to do you or anyone any good. Posting a load of images you've done on Podium isn't going to change the fact that, for a similar quality of output, Podium was slower than Vue and KKt. If there's some obvious way to speed up Podium let me know. The scene is bland and simple for a reason.
My thanks to Shaun for a more measured response. Yes, this kind of comparison will irk some people. But it will help counless more.
Just a note about set-up times for everyone else reading this. IRender was the fastest because it has an internal material setup function. Kerkythea and Podium were about the same. Don't assume Podium sets up quicker just because it's internal to SketchUp - scenes can need a lot of tweaking. Using the SU2KT exporter to KKT is quick and hassle free, and saved time because a metal material came pre-loaded. Podium doesn't have this (yet).
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I stand by my response...absolutely irrelevant. What does this shows is that you are able or rather not able to render with various render engines.
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I entirely expected to get a lot of stick over this by people backing up their favourite software
So you were baiting the response it seems, and you showed no bias?[Podium was slower than Vue and KKt
The current Podium and Kt have the same render engine, if anything with the same even handed setups they should be identical.But come on, insulting me isn't going to do you or anyone any good
C'mon seriously grow a chin, calling you bias and unable to use Podium well enough to conduct such comparisons is not an insult, it's a fact. -
I concur.
My final points on this and all render comparisons is that one cannot accurately square off one against another as there are too many factors involved. The best way to do such a comparison is to actually try them all and find the one that works for you, the one that you will be comfortable with and then keep at it until it becomes second nature.
I also feel it's in bad taste to do such comparisons as a biased result, or poor result due to inability to use the software correctly can have serious sales or participation consequences for that company as this is a public forum and people make decisions based on others remarks regardless how informed they are. -
@solo said:
[Podium was slower than Vue and KKt
The current Podium and Kt have the same render engine, if anything with the same even handed setups they should be identical.Exactly...!
This is also a good demonstration of how difficult it is to compare render applications...
It has a lot to do with materials used, lights and general set-up...
I feel it's time to end the discussion here...
Although it's very interesting, it's very difficult to compare render applications...It's like comparing digital cameras...
Individual people have individual needs, and apart from that people have individual preferences...
There's so many things that need to be considered... What's the purpose, do you need a SLR camera, a quick snap... Do you need zoom, how many Mega pixels etc... etc...
Some prefer Nikon, oters Canon, others Sony, others Olympus, others Panasonic etc... etc... The list could be endless...By the end of the day, I hope that people use something they feel confident with and will cover their indivisual need...
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@solo said:
if anything wait for Podium version 2 as it will not be KT based.
I may have seen 'something' by now. Let me put it this way: I got my wallet handy, as Podium's future looks very, very bright. Some may even be quite surprised.
Nuff said - I don't want Sepo and TBD coming after me.
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I'm bumping this thread because I registered to this forum to see it (image are not allowed for visitors).
It's too bad it turned out to be a fruitless argument about such and such.
IMO, evaluating / comparing possible companion renderers is useful, even if it should not be done this way.
I suggest to put a reference SKP file somewhere (or several if one is not significant enough) and then every contributor skilled with a given renderer could give a try to do its best with it, in a reasonable time. Then when posting result, give some indication of the work session time, the main settings/adjustments, render time etc.
What do you think? -
Sounds like a reasonable idea actually.
Make it happen.
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@solo said:
Sounds like a reasonable idea actually.
Make it happen.I'm quite new on SU, while more experienced with mechanical nurbs modelers.
So, I'm not the best qualified to submit a SU file, and opening a new thread without it is pointless. Hope someone here, if not the original poster, could propose a good test file. …and open a new thread, which should be kept on subject: submitting rendering test images and reports. -
hmm... alright, but we can't just post any old model. Should be a model that incorporates every possible minute detail to see how different rendering engines handle different attributes.
-A variety of different materials glass, metal (aluminum / chrome), wood, plastic, ect.
-A surface to test bumpmapping
-soft shadows / hard light / spots / omnis / sun
-self illumination / lamp shades / translucency
-sub surface scattering
-reflections / specular stamping
-many different textures to add a material to later
-a good model, high poly with a lot of detail, but not too highYou get the drift.
Maybe a kitchen? Or a simpler scene like a chair and a shelf with a lot of nick knacks? -
If such a comparison is made there should be both an interior and an exterior scene IMO.
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max's suggestion is quite reasonable but allow me to say, as a novice in rendering, that given a number of capable rendering applications (we all have seem tremendous results being achieved in a variety of apps: KT, Podium, Maxwell, VRay, Vue, Indigo, IRender, and a long etc) perhaps the most important features in that comparison are:
- how easy it is to use each of them? meaning: can you easily understand where are the main switches and how to achieve the basic tasks of rendering without a 6-month learning curve?
- in other words, how intuitive its use is?
- must you be an expert in rendering to be able to use it? some applications' interfaces are plain cryptic...
- what about its integration with the modeller you use, in our case SUp?
other questions could be added to those but they are sufficient for you to get my drift.
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It is always going to be a pretty pointless exercise in some respects, but one that we all would enjoy seeing the rsults of
It is a nice idea though Max submitting a default scene to be rendered by the variouse apps.
I just see too many variables to be able to ever get a definate result.
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Although it is a very good idea, and definetly better than one person attempting to use all the render engines, i still tihnk its too subjective.
When you render a scene, you are effectively interpreting it in a way that you think is appropriate. You do this evey time you apply a material, every time you tweak a setting, every time you alter the camera angle, and the list goes on. What looks right to someone, in terms of say a material, could well look wrong to someone else.
Having said that, it could still be an interesting exercise, and might still provide a better basis for comparison than is currently available.
edit: jsut realised i was a bit hasty there, basically i said in lots of words what dylan managed to distill.
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My suggestion would be:
The author of the SU file should define base materials in it, as well as the camera position, with, say, two scene/views, to allow interior/exterior. As for the lights, hdri, it's more tricky. I don't know yet if lightning definition is precise enough in SU (edit: no light in SU, right?).Then the author of the rendering should give indications on modification made on materials and lights, along with main rendering options, radiosity, scattering, caustics and such.
The goal of exercise should not to reach the ultimate capabilities of a renderer, rather see what can be done in a reasonable (Edit: 2-8 hrs maxi? ) session by a skilled user.
For sure the learning curve is not accounted for in such comparison. Could be useful if each poster added a (subjective) comment about this point.I'm certain that there are appropriate files available around. I have a model in progress and could submit it when finished, but I'm definitely not the most qualified.
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@max_b said:
The goal of exercise should not to reach the ultimate capabilities of a renderer, rather see what can be done in a reasonable (Edit: 2-8 hrs maxi? ) session by a skilled user.
For sure the learning curve is not accounted for in such comparison. Could be useful if each poster added a (subjective) comment about this point.A "reasonable session": I cannot for the life of me imagine that 2-8 hrs would be sufficient to render a grainfree image of an interior using an unbiased renderer.
Wouldn't it be more useful to have two separate comparison experiments? One for biased renderers, one for unbiased ones.
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Personally i think we should try and have a more scientific test scene, where a variety of materials and lighting situations occur. I say this as i reckon if we just use a normal scene it will be very ahrd to do a clear comparison of lots of aspects of the render engine.
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LOL, see even the parameters are not agreeable.
Think of SU as a drawing set with pencils and stencils, think of rendering as an illustration set filled with paints, easel's and paper textures.
Now there are different illustration sets, some have water paints and others have oil paints, heck some have cheap and quick drying Walmart poster paint. How the artist uses the set of tools makes all the difference, and that really is the crux of the issue.
Like art through the ages many well known artists started as an apprentice to a master in order to learn the disciplines before branching out on their own and developing their own style. Rendering has it's learning curve no matter how simple the illustration pack is, in fact a simpler (less features) pack will require one to be even more artistic to achieve a more realistic result due to it's limitations, but that is not considered a software learning curve as that falls into technique and talent. As for a pack that has everything in it at a press of a button, that takes a long time to learn the intricacies and the tweaking in order to obtain realistic results and can easily create stunning images once the learning demands are met.
Without getting into biased and unbiased engines, lets view them as poster paints versus oil paints instead, they both can give a photorealistic result if used by the right artist however one will take longer to dry than the other which for the sake of the image should not be a constricting factor, however as a choice of tools to do a job it certainly can be if speed is needed.
So summing up I would say that the choice of render engine is very important for what your needs are, render engines are just a tool and equate to roughly 50% of the resulting image as the balance is talent and skill.If you are to have a model for rendering, do not restrict the artist as the result will be restricted.
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