Structuring walls PLUGIN?

srx · 11 Oct 2016, 10:33

Imagine doing walls in SU. Simple, for concept design, grouped geometry, in appropriate layer, has name and maybe IFC class...It is easy and doable in many ways.

Now, imagine you have to structure the walls, so it has a few layers of different materials and functions. For example - core structural part of the wall, and let's say "skin" from the outside. How to develop it fast from the solid wall we already have?

The poly-line that slice the wall into two separate groups leaving them in its parent wall group.

The poly-line is easy to get from existing wall, but for slicing the wall?
Is there a plugin that could do it already? Like mold for cakes?

Thanks.

juju · 11 Oct 2016, 14:02

Have you tried Profile Builder 2.1?

+++ EDIT +++
I see now you're still on SU 7, then you'll probably need to hunt down Profile Builder 1 (pro) but I don't think it's being sold any longer.

D.Bur has a wall plugin you could take a look at: http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=17731#p17731

srx · 11 Oct 2016, 17:46

Maybe it is because of my English, but you didn't understood me. Imagine you already have solid walls with appropriate thickness with openings and do not want to draw multilayered walls all over again, but to slice them in two (or more groups) along the outline. The result would be inner and outer group of wall. This way there would be continuity from concept to structural walls without drawing facades all over again.
Maybe the plugin, say "MakeCompositWall", could even get outline from the selected wall, and the only input would be thickness of the structural part. Here is the start and end illustration.
The problem with Profile Builder is it doesn't include openings...

JQL · 11 Oct 2016, 17:58

I do this with offset in sectioncutfaces. Fast and easy and not a single layer is modeled inside walls while at the same time I can assign hatches/colors/materials and have a much more complet drawing than what you can achieve with pure 3D.

I wouldn't mind to have a plugin where I would choose a section cut face and it would create the layers for the walls in that 2d face though.

srx · 11 Oct 2016, 18:56

...and I was wondering how you menage those inside and outside parts of windows when you have composite walls Your workflow is more 2D oriented. It is probably fast and effective, but with limited usability. I am trying to build final drawings in Sketchup like in real world (not in every detail, but core and skin of the wall certainly), something like BIM, Revit, but more flexible and simple, with more control - and in SketchUp.

kaas · 11 Oct 2016, 20:53

Maybe the new interactive booleans by FLuid could do the trick?
http://www.fluidinteractive.com/products/sketchup-extensions/bool/

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 05:27

This is more like slice tool than Boolean.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 07:10

@srx said:

Your workflow is more 2D oriented. It is probably fast and effective, but with limited usability.

In Wich way do you think it's usability is limited?

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 08:03

@jql said:

@srx said:

Your workflow is more 2D oriented. It is probably fast and effective, but with limited usability.

In Wich way do you think it's usability is limited?

About modern architecture - core and skin of the house are two different organisms. They are not necessary bounded, which is obvious in sections.
About 4D - you first build the core, later in the end, you put the clothes on.
About crafting - the problem of the details of the house is in fact the problem of relationship of thees layers among the others.
About management - they are completely different facts in the bill of materials.

About BIM - IFC classification is trying to resolve this duality as I understand.

About making sections of the model - you can make and change automatic sections with Skalp, hatches based on material, or....

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 08:17

4D GIF animation - click to see.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 08:35

I understand what you're saying better now, but how would a plugin help you with a core like that without being BIM and still have accuracy?

I model the structure core when I need it and xref it in my model.

I do not model hard walls (probably the orange walls in your gif) because those have a lot of details too, like recesses and protrusions in my projects.

Then, there's also the fact that core and "skin" layers have very slight mismatches. Like 2cm plaster that covers a structure wall for the interior. Is that plaster core or "skin"? I'd say neither and this is an inaccuracy that is, for instance usually shown in Skalp's demo videos, and that I don't deal well with.

Also there's the fact that sketchup doesn't cope well with openings. If you have a multilayered wall you must also have a system for making openings on it. Hole cutting components, as you know, are the closest thing we have to opennings but they work on single faces. It's a mess to have double cutting components, but for buildings with lots of similar windows it's a must so you can control interior and exterior with 2 components. Did you imagine how you'd be dealing with that openings issue on both core and skin?

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 09:18

@jql said:

Did you imagine how you'd be dealing with that openings issue on both core and skin?

I think Stencil plugin could come in place if one already have two layer wall...
But the purpose of this imagined plugin is to slice true concept phase solid walls which already have defined openings (look at my first picture) and make them structured (at least for a start)! To make it easy to go from concept design phase to "structural" phase...

It would function similar to SU4You Slice tools, but slicing with poly-lines...dividing wall group into two separate groups.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 10:03

I understand what you want and though it's very rough and probably inaccurate, it could be a start.

I believe fluid's viz plugin, wich is a bit expensive and probably not that intuitive (although it's node based), would probably help you a lot in everything you need. You could sweep surfaces for walls using an interactive polyline, you could subtract openings using interactive Boolean operations and you could probably solve many other issues too.

Why don't you try it?

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 10:27

@jql said:

I understand what you want and though it's very rough and probably inaccurate, it could be a start.

I believe fluid's viz plugin, wich is a bit expensive and probably not that intuitive (although it's node based), would probably help you a lot in everything you need. You could sweep surfaces for walls using an interactive polyline, you could subtract openings using interactive Boolean operations and you could probably solve many other issues too.

Why don't you try it?

I know about VIZ tools. I was very exited with IFC implementation for Grasshopper and later hot link with BIM elephants, Archicad and Revit. But,IMO Sketchup is not robust enough to handle parametric modeling like Rhino. Thees are just examples that work in simple models, no chance it will do it on a building scale. It is useful for some fractal generated geometry elements. For the building as a whole, maybe in the future far far away... I am trying to get the best of it now, in a simple way with non interfering tools (parametric software steals focus). This little plugin would be helpful.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 17:01

There is also a plugin called BIM tools, by Brewskty that somewhat fits your description.

You design a shell, assign wall thickness and it extrudes the shell inwards, by a central axis or outwards, with parametric properties for walls, roofs and slabs. It's also capable of handling openings. I do think you need something else, but it might be worth a try too.

Also, from an outer shell I've tried using JointPushPull for layering I didn't like the workflow though as some times it gave some unpredictable results.

The way I do it is using offset actually. I offset space plans, clean lines then pushpull. It works rather well and I think I could adapt it to a multilayer workflow though I don't like the fact I'd have to adjust middle layers thicknesses.

However, the closest plugin for a wall layer system I can think of is double line, or multi line. It creates multilayer walls exactly as you want (I never used it as I don't need multilayered walls). Unfortunatelly I don't believe these multilayered walls are separated solids but rather multifaces and I don't think they are parametric. You could check it too, though.

pilou · 12 Oct 2016, 17:22

Plugins of Kirill2008 ? (Kirill Bannov)
or Tak2hata ?

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 18:09

Thank you very much for suggestions.

@jql said:

There is also a plugin called BIM tools, by Brewskty that somewhat fits your description.

You design a shell, assign wall thickness and it extrudes the shell inwards, by a central axis or outwards, with parametric properties for walls, roofs and slabs. It's also capable of handling openings. I do think you need something else, but it might be worth a try too.

Also, from an outer shell I've tried using JointPushPull for layering I didn't like the workflow though as some times it gave some unpredictable results.

The way I do it is using offset actually. I offset space plans, clean lines then pushpull. It works rather well and I think I could adapt it to a multilayer workflow though I don't like the fact I'd have to adjust middle layers thicknesses.

However, the closest plugin for a wall layer system I can think of is double line, or multi line. It creates multilayer walls exactly as you want (I never used it as I don't need multilayered walls). Unfortunatelly I don't believe these multilayered walls are separated solids but rather multifaces and I don't think they are parametric. You could check it too, though.

BIM tools was nice idea but only experimental. I had the same experience with JPP as you...Double line and SU offset...they are all tools to make composite walls from the start. My idea is to make solid wall in the beginning in conceptual stage, like you do, and to slice existing solid walls into two groups later when structure is needed.

@pilou said:

Plugins of Kirill2008 ? (Kirill Bannov)
or Tak2hata ?

Those are great plugins (TAK2HATA BST even has a tool which works like profile builder 2), but I don't think they have the option of making composites out of existing solid walls.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 19:12

Yours is a very sound idea that I'd like to see developed. If done right, I'd gladly pay for it as I could probably see it could be a workflow changer.

I would need it a bit more sophisticated though, and at least a bit parametric so it could cope with project changes.

I hope someone figures something out.

srx · 12 Oct 2016, 20:09

@jql said:

Yours is a very sound idea that I'd like to see developed. If done right, I'd gladly pay for it as I could probably see it could be a workflow changer.

I would need it a bit more sophisticated though, and at least a bit parametric so it could cope with project changes.

I hope someone figures something out.

I'm glad we understood each other. I posted the request in developers forum.

Parametric for project changes would be great...and far more complex to develop.
I also like being under control, using simple tools which stays out of the way and let me organize information by myself (DOS-Android). For changes, Stretch By Area plugin by TAK2HATA is very helpful.

JQL · 12 Oct 2016, 22:27

Stretch by Area is great, but in my workflow i prefer SU's Move and for openings/closets/kitchen design Box Stretch to Target, on FredoScale, by Fredo. It aligns with axis automatically and you have a modifier for double plane stretching. It beats DC component windows by a mile!