[Banned]
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Jeff, I am not inclined to get into a lengthy debate over morality or world politics -- however I do feel compelled to point out that clearly there are viable (and even excellent) alternatives to piracy:
- SketchUp Free
- Other free modeling softwares (too many to list)
- Open source softwares (Blender comes to mind first)
Instead of arguing about the inherent unfairness of the software pricing system, I would simply point out that legal alternatives are abundant -- so clearly to use a pirated version is a willful act of theft.
Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to completely ignore that fact that it does not need to occur at all, and in fact is nothing more than being too lazy to look for a legal alternative among the huge list of available options. The tragedy there is by supporting open source softwares the pirates could actually help level the economic playing field and thereby make the world a better place.
Best,
Jason. -
I have some first-nation friends that might have a good definition of nature. They mostly hate money for the trouble it gets them in.
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money doesn't make you happy but it certainly doesn't make you sad
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@jason_maranto said:
Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to
those are just a couple of factors.. the larger factor at play here is that we're talking about entirely different cultures but many are speaking in a way of "I think like this therefore everybody in the world should think like this".. it's shortsighted and basically leads to war.. (which, ironically enough, is the much larger crime or act of inhumanity)..
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/07/22/in-china-why-piracy-is-here-to-stay/
@unknownuser said:
“China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”
you're saying it's illegal and immoral etc and in our culture, it is.. but to someone in some other culture, it is very possible that it's not seen that way.. for one, it's not illegal or it's a very grey area as to legality.. further, someone in india doesn't go through the same thought process as someone in france.. the french pirate will likely be dealing internally with a moral choice "it is wrong to do this but should i do it anyway?".. where as that notion isn't even entering the equation for someone in a different culture..
if we're going to do things on a global scale, we have to consider every individual or culture existing on said globe.. if we don't then it leads to wars which are fought for the lamest of reasons (we don't think/look/act alike)..
now, i don't have much of a problem with injecting or influencing pure thoughts into other cultures.. however, i am far from believing the u.s possesses such purity.. our country is a bunch of b.s and crimes against humanity happen on a daily basis at very large scales.. we aren't good.. we aren't the good guys.. so it's stupid for us to invade other countries and try to instill our crap morals in place of their crap morals.
when i see in our own country that things like racism,sexism, classism etc are no longer existing -- then let's talk about spreading our values to other lands.. until that time, take a step back and see that our way isn't the right way.
add-
and yes, we ourselves should question what the causes of our wrong ways are.. it's possible money is poison.. it's possible the hoarding of knowledge/technology andor ownership of said things is poison.. these are ideas we must question ourselves in order to better society.. just because things are they way they are and the way they've been since you were born doesn't mean it's the right way.. it's just what you're used to-- that's all.. it's incredibly likely that there are much better ways. -
And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.
But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?
Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software -- nearly anything you need can be had for free, and if enough people use it they will become the new industry standards.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.
actually, no i haven't sidestepped it and it's what i've been saying all along.. i get it that my thoughts may be on the abstract side of things but really, i don't think you're looking at it from all angles.. it seems you're mostly focused on results you can see yet you're completely avoiding the causes or root nature which makes the results possible in the first place.. change the root actions and the results you're trying to prevent disappear automatically.. you're focusing on the wrong stuff.. trying to put bandaids all over the place instead of fixing the core causes.
@unknownuser said:
But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?
why are you trimble's piracy cop? how do you know software companies aren't a bit further evolved in their views of piracy than you? how do you know ms windows cracks aren't being made my microsoft themselves? why is osx free? why does their iWork suite cost only $9?
etcetc..@unknownuser said:
Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software
and again, i come back to it's only theft in your eyes.. a pirate in thailand is only a criminal in your eyes.
go back a hundred or so years in your own country.. you have americans owning slaves and/or killing black people with no penalty.. are they criminals?
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@unknownuser said:
China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”
Makes sense then that they will peacefully take over the world as is becoming evident.
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Gotcha, so basically you are saying that all the information about licensing procedure that Trimble puts out (including the Eula) is somehow unintelligible because of cultural differences. I disagree, and I think I am giving more credit to those people in these situations than you are.
I am nobody's cop -- I didn't ban anybody. I am just pointing out the extremely obvious truth that this type of piracy is at the very least unnecessary, and in most cases just the result of laziness and complacency. For the record my stuff has been and is being pirated all around the world constantly. I know personally what this is like (do you?), and have never done anything to try to stop it... or even speak out about it.
I have had users in countries where it is not legal (due to sanctions) to purchase my stuff email me directly and apologize that they were not able to pay because of world politics. I have always been understanding and helpful, telling them their obligation to me is paid if they also freely share what they have learned from me with their countrymen. That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
I know personally what this is like (do you?)
not really.. i make instructional videos all the time but i share them freely.. if i know how to do something that someone else wants to know how to do, i'll show them what i know..
i've had a design of mine patented by another company before.. to the point of it now being illegal for me to build the thing i designed and built in the first place.. probably not the smartest way for me to deal with it in moneymakingmanhattan culture as i probably missed out on a bunch of cash but i just moved on from it and continued to evolve my designs.. it was the more fulfilling choice for me personally.
@unknownuser said:
That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.
ok. my bad.
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@unknownuser said:
truth that this type of piracy is at the very least unnecessary, and in most cases just the result of laziness and complacency.
I get cheated and lied to every day by Corporate America/Canada and yet I still treat them fairly and pay for all my tools ( not wanting to offend those companies like Trimble that add great value).
But I have a very high tolerance for BS because I grew up with "free enterprise" so I turn a blind eye to it, lets face it, willful Corporate murder would top the list of things that bug me about free enterprise.
You can't expect all people to have respect for Corporate fee schedules in view of the behavior of many legitimate corporations.
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The old "I am not as bad as they are, therefore my bad behavior is excusable" arguement... my issue with that is very practical:
To pirate requires you to go out of your way, to potentially dangerous areas (Virus-wise), to obtain the software. Whereas downloading, installing and using an open source software is safe, easy and always encouraged.
If you take the approach that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america, then I would suggest that using the open source software, and contributing to the growth of the marketshare of those (versus the corporate softwares), would be far more effective.
There is no downside to using open source instead, other than having to momentarily step outside the familiar routine... but that is a wise investment of time, which will serve towards giving long term freedom from corporate powers.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
The old "I am not as bad as they are, therefore my bad behavior is excusable" arguement... my issue with that is very practical:
To pirate requires you to go out of your way, to potentially dangerous areas (Virus-wise), to obtain the software. Whereas downloading, installing and using an open source software is safe, easy and always encouraged.
If you take the approach that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america, then I would suggest that using the open source software, and contributing to the growth of the marketshare of those (versus the corporate softwares), would be far more effective.
There is no downside to using open source instead, other than having to momentarily step outside the familiar routine... but that is a wise investment of time, which will serve towards giving long term freedom from corporate powers.
Best,
Jason.it just sounds like you're talking to people who live within a hundred miles of you.
or, like you're trying to teach me the difference between right and wrong when in reality, i don't live on a deserted island, i do use money, i'm in the same culture as you, my software and usage of said software is all legal under u.s. laws... i'm playing by the book, you see?if i were taking the approach "that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america".. well, i'd almost certainly be stealing their software, wouldn't i?.. instead, my idea of giving them the finger is through spreading knowledge or ideas that we don't have to live under their rules.. all we need to do as a whole is say stop and it will stop in one day..
but jason, the world is much bigger than florida.. in many cases, the pirated software IS being payed for by the user.. there's a huge reseller market in which people are selling software at highly discounted prices.. or selling computers which has software preinstalled which under u.s. law, shouldn't be there.. it's very similar to movie piracy..
buy the DVD on the street corner for a dollar, you know.. it's not always about going to some shady place on the internet and downloading a movie.. you buy the movie from the chick in the subway and you have acted as a responsible consumer.. maybe not responsible in our consumer culture but certainly responsible in another.. there's some old lady in pakistan right now watching the hobbit who, in her or her neighbor's eyes, has done absolutely nothing wrong.. but here you are, thousands of miles away, chastising her and calling her a thief..now, i'm not asking you to change your way of thinking or- my point is certainly not "piracy is ok".. what i am asking you to do is open your eyes beyond your borders.. you keep offering all of these solutions but the way i see it is that you're failing to see the problem as a whole.. you're thinking too close to home.. consider the whole world first then offer solutions because i think if you start from scratch with wider eyes, your ideas for solutions won't be very similar to your current ones.
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Edited because sadly my point that it was time to move on was mostly lost.
Edited again because some sad twats have to hit the thumbs down without even understanding what they are talking about. Perfect example for this thread.
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You keep wanting to make this about social ills... but I don't think you are getting the simplicity of the issue. The issue here is piracy of SketchUp... or in a more general sense software piracy. You act as if I am not aware of the larger world and what goes on out there... but that assumption is based on the fact that you:
a) know next to nothing about me.
b) are attempting to argue something that is not relevant to the thread.For instance you keep talking about the evils of white america, as if I have no understanding of this. What you don't know is my great grandfather was forcefully taken from his family on the reservation, and raised in an orphanage as "white"... this was part of an effort to erradicate the tribe. There are are other similar issues, but that is my personal business... so I won't elaborate further.
Similarly, what I am adressing is the need to pirate... not the morality of doing so. You are attempting to pull me into some sort of stance on the morality of such, but I have only commented on the hard practical realities of the situation. It is not needful for anybody to pirate software in todays world... open source software has become so prevelant that almost anything you need is there for you.
You attempt to use "cultural ignorance" as some sort of catch-all protection from personal responsibility, but I would suggest anybody capable of finding this place is already well informed enough to know the expectations involved.
Furthermore, the original poster is creating video game assets... I wonder what his stance will be when the time comes for his product to be pirated.
Best,
Jason. -
Why not have an "off topic" area, (or is there one already) and drag this topic there ? Although well meant, all this political / social debating is best off out of the "Sketchup Pro & Make" area.
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Jeff,
Just interjecting--for sake of the discussion: Are you arguing some sort of moral relativism? We can't tell other cultures how to behave, therefore there's no debate? By bringing up past legality of slavery, therefore all criminality (all rule of law?) is not only suspect but not worthy of discussion? Do ethics, fair trade, fair payment for services, and private property also fall to the wayside, because some authorities allowed atrocities at some other time and place?
Carry on. Peter
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@calstock said:
Why not have an "off topic" area, (or is there one already) and drag this topic there ? Although well meant, all this political / social debating is best off out of the "Sketchup Pro & Make" area.
It's not actually off topic any longer. As the thread quickly changed into a piracy discussion. And whatsmore the piracy discussion is mostly about the piracy of Sketchup. The OP has been banned so his needs are not a concern any longer and his question was rather topical anyway.
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@pbacot said:
Jeff,
Just interjecting--for sake of the discussion: Are you arguing some sort of moral relativism? We can't tell other cultures how to behave, therefore there's no debate?
yes, i guess i'm arguing moral relativism.. in that it's incredibly likely our values in this neck of the woods will be different in a hundred years from now just like they were different a hundred years ago.
and that moral values don't change at a consistent pace for every individual or culture.
so yeah, at this very exact point in time in the u.s, software piracy is illegal and is also seen as a moral wrongdoing.. but it's all relative and we can't (or shouldn't) expect every other culture to see things the way we do.. especially when realizing it's very possible that in a hundred years time, those people might look back at us going "holy crap! i can't believe they made a french fry recipe top secret and allowed a handful of individuals to profit so immensely off of doing so" (or whatever)
(though honestly, i do think things will probably get worse in these regards before they start getting better.. so maybe 500 years time for that example
)but really, who am i to say what's right or wrong? who is anybody to say that? but to make things worse, the people who are saying what's right or wrong aren't doing so from a moral standpoint..
at the top, it's the people who are making money (and i mean-- bringing money into existence in the first place.. the creators) that are creating the laws on how we are to use the money.. we're arguing about the morality of using money but the system itself is rotten from the top down.. and the more we continue to enforce these people's rules, and especially the more we allow the institution of money to be a guiding moral light, the longer the problem will continue..@unknownuser said:
By bringing up past legality of slavery, therefore all criminality (all rule of law?) is not only suspect but not worthy of discussion? Do ethics, fair trade, fair payment for services, and private property also fall to the wayside, because some authorities allowed atrocities at some other time and place?
not really and it wasn't the point i was trying to bring up when mentioning those things.. just meant to say that 'right and wrong' changes and can do so in relatively short amounts of time..
however, our current lawmakers are committing huge crimes themselves.. so yes, their laws are baloney or they're certainly not practicing what they preach.. we're sitting here arguing about stealing software and yeah, it's illegal under current law.. just like it should be illegal to invade a country and rob it's citizens of the natural resources under their feet.. but the lawmakers simply have to change the law to make that act ok..
morals and laws aren't the same thing.. if the law suddenly changed to "it's illegal to charge money for software" would you quit using software since it's violating your personal code of ethics?
point being, there are lines being crossed in the conversation where legality and morality are being used interchangeably when really they are different. -
@jason_maranto said:
For instance you keep talking about the evils of white america,
yes, that's what i'm talking about.. (and just to make sure we're clear, i don't mean that literally as read nor do i think you mean it as such but yeah.. along those lines)
most, by far, problems in the world can be traced to the power structure in place.. in a non capitalistic society, would there still be the notion of crime? sure, i imagine.. but far far less.. i don't call for a utopian society.. just something alot better than what we have today.. thats all.. that's my wish.. i want to contribute to society without the underlying sense that in order for me to do so, i need to figure a way to suck something out of it in order to feed myself.
we're far beyond starvation as a civilization so then why is it still so common in the world?
because we have people that don't know how to solve problems, nor whose goals are to solve societal problems in the most powerful positions in the world.yet these are the people who are telling you how to think. and saying "it's ok for you to own an idea".. that is not your idea, i'm sorry.. you are standing on the shoulders of giants.. your idea is everybody's idea just like the only reason you had that idea in the first place is because of the billions of people who came before you.
i want our civilization to have a revolution.. a revolution of our own consciousness.. one in which we see "software piracy" as a stupid idea in and of itself.. we're holding ourselves back by continuing with these old patterns/traditions/rules etc.
@unknownuser said:
Similarly, what I am adressing is the need to pirate... not the morality of doing so. You are attempting to pull me into some sort of stance on the morality of such, but I have only commented on the hard practical realities of the situation. It is not needful for anybody to pirate software in todays world... open source software has become so prevelant that almost anything you need is there for you.
i think it's becoming more prevalent but we're not fully there yet.. a couple more decades and the idea of "i'm going to get rich off of coding some 3d app then putting it on lockdown" might not be such a great business plan..
@unknownuser said:
You attempt to use "cultural ignorance" as some sort of catch-all protection from personal responsibility,
yeah, maybe.. i'm speaking off-the-cuff stream-of-consciousness and not really editing/preconceptualizing/thoroughly thinking through all of this so i imagine it's very likely i'm doing a lot of stuff like what you're saying.
@unknownuser said:
Furthermore, the original poster is creating video game assets... I wonder what his stance will be when the time comes for his product to be pirated.
who knows.. maybe 'his assets' are simply contributions to an open sourced project.
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Moral relevance and moral equivalency speculations aside, I have enjoyed reading this interaction. Moral and ethical issues don't really change. People do.
I can answer for no one but myself and only from within the cultural norms and ethos of my community and my family. My father used to say, "If it is not yours, don't take it. If however, you life depends on taking it, then live and expect to have to deal with the consequences of taking something that doesn't belong to you."
This is why I have the sig below. Facts are facts and rules are rules. But then there are circumstances and priorities to consider.
As far as Sketchup and Trimble are concerned, I did not have the money to purchase Sketchup 2015 Pro. However, I showed them what I was doing with their product and they granted me a Non-profit license. They seemed to be very amenable to making concessions in my favor. And even if they weren't, it's not a life and death situation for me. Y'know what I mean?
Most people, in most cultures, in most ages, will tell you that stealing is wrong. But thieves will generally follow with why it's OK for them. It doesn't matter if it's pirating software, stealing bread or taking someone's life. The vast majority of the ills of any culture fall under the heading of 'a feeling of entitlement'. The question always remains, are they really entitled; to the software, the bread or someone's life? In most cases, it's still no. But there are reasonable exceptions.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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