Sign for Peace in Palestine UPDATE!
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@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
I'd like to ask a question! What would be the situation with the Palestinian nation without Hamas?
Well, they've been around since 1987, so ... pretty much like it was before '87: bad. Hamas is a mere symptom, albeit a nasty one. IMHO.
The root to this mess goes back much further than 1987. I've located a maps diagram which covers the history of the situation here,
To my surprise and the surprise of many Irish citizens our country abstained on a UN vote 'UN Human Rights Council States vote on resolution establishing independent Commission of Inquiry for OPT & Gaza' Only the US voted against.
There is an interesting debate among ordinary Irish folks on the matter here, http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-eu-human-rights-council-1586964-Jul2014/
I keep thinking back to my point about the IRA, Northern Ireland, UK Government and Irish Government. If after 25 years of vicious situation that looked hopeless PEACE could be achieved thought talks, compromise on ALL sides, there should be hope for a settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. In the case of the Northern Ireland peace the US played a major part but I do not think they can be the honest arbitrator in this case.
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Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet... -
@andyc said:
Mike,
I agree that the Northern Ireland model has a lot to offer.
My concern is that a large part of the reason why the NI agreement worked was that there were people on both sides prepared to take a pragmatic approach to the issues. And in so doing they demonstrated that pragmatism needn't mean a total abandonment of long-held beliefs and values.
That is what is needed here - pragmatism / realism instead of idealism / fundamentalism. Sadly, listening to interviews from both sides in this conflict this morning, I'm hearing no (influential) pragmatic voices yet...
I think the NI solution worked because there were some good arbitrators involved on all sides. The question is who is going to act as an honest arbitrator with no prejudice and trusted by all sides in this conflict ..... thats going to be difficult to find ........ someone of Nelson Mandela's calibre?
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What a pharisaism
! Dudes have you noticed that during last 2 years 250000 Muslims were killed (by Muslims)in neighboring Syria along! that roughly x1000 times more than lost in Gaza lately.
Another funny fact: Palestinian rocket attacks began in 2001. Since then, nearly 4,800 rockets have hit southern Israel, just over 4,000 of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The range of the rockets has increased over time.
Could you imagine 4000 rockets falling on Dublin or Dallas without adequate reaction? -
I guess your definition of an adequate reaction differs from mine.
And to describe the preceding posts as pharisaism is, I feel, to misunderstand the humanitarian compassion that motivated them.
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some zoom out especially for Mike Lucey.
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@rv1974 said:
Could you imagine 4000 rockets falling on Dublin or Dallas without adequate reaction?
No. Yet: the root of the problem aren't Hamas's rockets.
"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist." -Golda Meir, 1969
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done
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@rv1974 said:
some zoom out especially for Mike Lucey.
RV, not sure what you are getting at. Could you expand / clarify?
It looks like things may be down scaling in light of Sen Kerry's and others efforts. Hopefully it will continue in this direction.
There is alway hope!
Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies: Social media campaign goes viral (PHOTOS)
http://rt.com/news/175792-jews-arabs-refuse-enemies/ -
A tough topic that we know has routes of many kinds but probably majoring in the resettlement of European jews post ww2 which slewed the population mix. Hamas like other organisations have zero interest in a solution including a jewish state.
As a mixed ancestry human being I prefer to locate my ancestry in the area to pre modern religion times my surname comes from a practise of naming people for the work they were doing in this case water carriers. Apparently the group were engaged in carrying water from rivers/lakes/wells to markets and homes of wealthier residents. A bit of history which is context based only.
There was a contextual suggestion in one of the Tom Clancy books which piqued my interest in the use of independent paramilitary forces to reinforce a buffer zone but the suggestion is rather moot because the only people considered truly independent were the Swiss guards of the Vatican. That would suggest a third religious group could be considered a safe choice by the current antagonists which I cannot see working. Several of the studies on the dead sea scrolls and landscape of the pre and early Christian times suggests that the current location of what is sometimes called the holy land is wrong and that they should be looking at an area of the red sea, both sides get their followers although I reckon the gulf of aquaba would be just as objectionable to both sides of the conflict. Oil and water would appear to be the problem but even if land was granted to a new state, with homes and schools etc built by international donation, WHO would be the ones to move?
Apart from the night following day of rockets and suicide bombers on buses etc and air force bombe followed by ground force incursion is there a lesson they are willing to learn? Sooner or late one side has to blink, followed by the other. Perhaps if Hamas could have free access to the outside world and finance to rebuild the nation, they might be willing to stop their terror attacks.
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Just stumbled upon this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ
I cannot get the embedding to work. That's a word, right, embedding? Why must I be thick? Why?
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Jon Snow the C4 reporter is visibly upset by what he saw and experienced as should any right thinking person.
I have taken some time to read all I can on the history that has lead to the current bad situation.
I have come to the conclusion that only the USA can end this mess because it appears that President Truman without any due consideration for the Palestinian people set the playing field back in May 14th 1948, eleven minutes after the British gave up and the Zionists declared the Israeli state on lands that they had pushed Palestinians from and continue to do so with the ongoing massive military and financial support of the USA.
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Some links providing info from the 'other' point of view:
While trying to stop attacks against its civilians, Israel continues to provide aid to the Palestinian civilians.
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Peace/Humanitarian/Pages/Israeli-humanitarian-aid-continues-10-Jul-2014.aspxHamas Priorities - Terror tunnels over hospitals and schools.
Terror tunnel entrance near civilian utilities
Hamas hiding rockets in UN Schools
@unknownuser said:
For the second time in a week, the United Nations agency disclosed that rockets were discovered in one of their vacant schools.
Hamas have a guide on effective kidnapping - remember what started this current ground operation?
And remember the famous quote by Israel's Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu:
@unknownuser said:
The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.
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Marcus, I started reading the first link but once I read this, I stopped.
'Despite the constant rocket fire into Israel, the Kerem Shalom crossing remains open during Operation Protective Edge, providing food and essential supplies for the residents of the Gaza Strip.'
What right has one nation to block world access to another nation? The matter can still be sorted out by the USA by simply insisting / requiring a fair deal for the Palestinians as they should have done in 1948. If this had been done at this time I very much doubt we would have this ongoing mess.
I am not condoning Hamas but I can understand why they have adopted their current policy. It is very similar to the policy the IRA had in Northern Ireland prior to the Good Friday Agreement. I would go as far to say that if the IRA did not follow such a policy there probably would have been no Good Friday Agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement And we would still be looking at ongoing bombings in NI and the UK.
In NI there is now peace and power sharing between the Catholic Nationalists and Protestant Unionists for a number of years. Very few thought this could ever happen but it did.
I would hope that the Israelis and Palestinians could do some kind of a similar power sharing deal in what was Palestine circa.1948. I think the main obstacle would be religion. It appears the Israelis want only a Jewish state and the Palestinians militants are brainwashed into hating Jews. The only hope will be that the younger generation will see the nonsense of religious based politics / states. Its happening around the world and I'm personally glad of it.
As a matter of interest! The above President Truman signed document is believed to have been provided by Zionists for his signature at the time. It reads
**This Government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine, and recognition has been requested by the (Provisional (inserted by Truman) Government thereof.
The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority of the new (Jewish state omitted by Truman) State of Israel (inserted by Truman).**
Truman made two major alterations! It seems to me that he possibly foresaw the problems that we now have but alas there was no real efforts made to create a 'State of Israel'. A 'Jewish' state as was the intention of the Zionists has been set up which does not appear to accommodate non Jews born in the area of then Palestine.
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Quite a polarizing topic this is, I had a few of these debates on Face Book recently, have now purged several "friends" who confused my standing up for the innocent women and children dying to being anti-Semitic, tsk.
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Mike, when you ask,
@mike lucey said:What right has one nation to block world access to another nation?
At this point, what would the alternative be? To allow free access and therefore the suicide bombings that were carried out in the past? Then we would be lamenting the mass deaths of Israelis right now, instead of Palestinians. Lives on both sides are valuable.
Perhaps a mediated solution that you speak of similar to what worked in Ireland could work here as well. I really do think the Jews and Arabs could live peacefully together - it has happened before in history and still does in some areas of Israel today, but a broad solution is beyond me.
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Re: Jews and Arabs living peacefully together, I really like the social media campaign happening right now with the hashtag "#JewsAndArabsRefuseToBeEnemies"
Maybe I'm a dreamer...I can't begin to imagine how hard it is to reconcile family members killed by the "other side", but I'm very glad to see some of those affected working towards it.
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@solo said:
Quite a polarizing topic this is, I had a few of these debates on Face Book recently, have now purged several "friends" who confused my standing up for the innocent women and children dying to being anti-Semitic, tsk.
Yes Pete, it is a very polarizing topic. It seems that certain folks 'play' the so called anti-Semitic card when they don't have an argument. They should change the term to anti-Jew / Israel as Semitic people are a much larger group than just those in Israel. See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
John Lennon - Imagine (official video)
@d12dozr said:
Mike, when you ask,
@mike lucey said:What right has one nation to block world access to another nation?
At this point, what would the alternative be? To allow free access and therefore the suicide bombings that were carried out in the past? Then we would be lamenting the mass deaths of Israelis right now, instead of Palestinians. Lives on both sides are valuable.
Maybe just close the Gaza / Israeli boarder but leave sea access alone.
@d12dozr said:
Perhaps a mediated solution that you speak of similar to what worked in Ireland could work here as well. I really do think the Jews and Arabs could live peacefully together - it has happened before in history and still does in some areas of Israel today, but a broad solution is beyond me.
I also feel that many average Israelis would be willing to give things a try but for the Palestinians they would really need some of their lands back before they would be willing to lay down the rockets.
Coming back to the NI conflict. Here is a historic picture of Queen Elizabeth shaking hands with Martin McGuiness, Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and the Sinn Féin Party's Chief Negotiator.Behind Queen Elizabeth, Prince Philip is about to shake hands with Martin McGuiness. Prince Philip's uncle whom he was very close to, Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma was assassinated by the IRA on August 27, 1979, in County Sligo!
Standing next to Martin Guiness is Peter Robinson, First Minister of Northern Ireland and Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party.
If these three groups that were involved in brutal atrocities on all sides can do the business of living in peace so can the Israelis and Palestinians with some honest effort and good will all both sides.
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Thanks, Massimo.
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