Let's build a new 3D software!
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@mike lucey said:
Hi Oli,
I can understand where you are coming from as can others here that are becoming more and more disillusioned with SketchUp's on going development. It looks that its just not developing fast enough for many BUT on the other hand the it looks that the vast majority of its user-base are more that happy with SketchUp in its current state and ongoing development rate.
Every week I read through hundreds of 'Comments' from newbies signing up for SCF and not a day goes by that I don't read comments on how SketchUp meets the newbies exact needs.
As you say, at this moment, SU meets newbies exact needs, well I'm not satisfied at all with this needs. I mean, the charm of SU is it's simplicity, its versatility, but let's not get trapped here. Is NOT ok to be perfect for newbies... because especially with SU, you end to be a newbie in very short time... few weeks, months perhaps. What then? I start learning 3 more apps to complete my circle of needs? I fail to see the efficiency in this. Of course, there are areas that will never (and should not) be covered by SU. But I must agree that SU it's a lot left behind. As the computing power increased, the complexity of the model had increased too. And texturing needs and graphic displaying needs... SU just don't use all hardware possibilities that are available now.
In my past I tried a lot of options, to combine several software to develop a more complex workflow, but it gets confusing from one point. The speed decreases drastically and I see no benefit of that. And my final option was to reduce the complexity of my services (and this is bad). -
@aerilius said:
Oli's vision of a modeling application that is
- convergent as in bridging the borders between devices, operating systems and input methods on one side
- and convergent as uniting advanced professional usage and light, occasional, creative usage into one single interface that can transform and satisfy for any situationthis is quite innovative, but would need to rethink 3d from scratch, and design the platform from the ground up to be scalable, extendible and usable on all different screens and devices. Imagine your favorite program would be ready to use either on a desktop with 3d glasses, with fingers on a tablet, or with a 3d pen or hands and a AR-glasses (video). Like wood-working and pottery take place in real space and use various tools depending on the situation, the same should be true for 3d modeling.
This could be the next step in 3d!
You describe it much better than I do.
You see where I'm coming from though. Some really great responses here, I was worried you would all think I'm crazy.
Yes, we totally need to rethink 3D. Currently you have to be of a very technical mind to approach complex model making. Sometimes even apparently simple models can become highly stressful to the point where it feels I need a phd in physics and maths.
Now I know anything is possible in 3D, but at what cost?This is where I believe current 3D apps are failing. 99% of people don't care about polygons, meshes, voxels, triangulation, quads etc. They just want to open an app and start modelling. Some of the jargon associated with 3D modelling makes it feel kinda old-school in the fact nothing has really changed.
I believe we should take inspiration from the real world. My wooden desk is not based on polygons. My mouse and keyboard are not based on polygons; they are solids. I believe that the end user need not concern themselves about polygons, neat meshes, quads. I understand these attributes bridge several 3D apps together, in the fact they follow the same convention but I don't believe this is the future. Is there no way we can develop a 3D app that writes the new rule books? A new language, a new core, a new demographic.
And yes, SketchUp is fine as it is. For beginners, for hobbyists, but within a couple of weeks we are already outgrowing it, looking for plugins or indeed other software. The mobile telephone was also "fine as it was", but it didn't stop us from developing it to the point where it is now more powerful than some computers.
If we always settle for a basic app, then they'll keep throwing out a basic app. Time and time we complain about the lack of development in SketchUp because nobody wants to do anything about it. Yes it has improved in a couple of regards, but come on, this is the 21st century....I should hope my 3D app can bloody well display shadows properly, I should hope my 3D app can EASILY support more polygons than a few cubes. I don't want to wait 20 minutes to subdivide a "complex" shape; other apps do this in a split second!
Let's face it; we love the sketchup interface, we love its easy-of-use but that doesn't mean we should settle for mediocracy. I find it inspiring that such an app does exist but SketchUp's simplicity is also its downfall in the fact that you have to use relatively complex workarounds to get the results you require. I've said it before; SketchUp is so simple, it has actually become quite complicated.
I would rather not venture into a Kickstarter project as such, I believe we should keep this in our community in the beginning to see if this is even feasible. Kickstarter is there to raise money essentially, I don't believe we have to go down that avenue for a LONG time. First we need the basics; people, time, ideas. Kickstarter is certainly not the only avenue for funding a project like this.
I do not profess to be a script writer, software developer, coder, mathematician. I just have a vision of a completely different 3D app that remains approachable, easy to use, dynamic, simple and innovative. An app that becomes as complex as YOU want it to be. An app that evolves with the times, evolves with your computer power, evolves with trends in 3D modelling. Forget the jargon, forget the conventions, we need something fresh; a whole new way to model in 3D.
Thanks Mike for such a comprehensive and coherent response.
Yes it does make sense that the SketchUp team does venture into this project. This is where I have my doubts though; I don't want the core of the software to be the same, I don't want the rate of development to be the same. I am sure that the SketchUp team are already busy on other things too.
I also don't want to rush into any Kickstarter crowd-funding until there is a defined path for this software to take. I would actually prefer if the users themselves fund this project, rather than a whole load of backers who have no interest other than donating a couple of dollars. I mean, what are we looking at? Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands? Thanks for the offer for a forum on this website.
Don't get me wrong, this is no personal attack on SketchUp or indeed the SketchUp team. Yes a majority of users are happy with SketchUp as it is, but these aren't the people I am aiming at. But saying that, maybe they are just settling for what they have. They don't want to venture into anything more complex because "this is what sketchup can do and I will limit my creativity to what it can achieve."
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Anyone remember the World Builder video?
Obviously this is way out of reach but great food for thought.
Look at the interface, the simplicity, the robustness. We can only imagine such a software being so immersive, but I'm looking at the way the 3D modelling is delivered, not the virtual reality aspect.
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Another thing i could think of would be a Sketchup "plugin" or interface for already existing 3d apps like Max or Blender. I don't know, if it would be possible to implement something like the inference engine on plugin level, or emulating the navigation of Sketchup. But IF it would be possible i think this would be great (at least for me it would be all i can dream of) the sketchup workflow with double clicking objects, push-pull, direct and precise numeric input and as most important thing the inference engine, combined with support for complex models, modifier stack and all the other things...
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I think the post should be renamed to get wider attention. 'Lets build a new Sketchup?' perhaps.
Also a vote might be informative. ( I would vote no, I am happy with SU and the pace of development, although I can understand the frustrations of power users like Oli ).
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@olishea said:
I believe there is a niche for something that appears intuitive, easy to use, (dare I say it, fun) yet can be so powerful at the same time. A sketchup on steroids. A software that actually develops and evolves over time, taking full advantage of the power your computer can offer.
Ahhh.... PlusSpec?
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@utiler said:
@olishea said:
I believe there is a niche for something that appears intuitive, easy to use, (dare I say it, fun) yet can be so powerful at the same time. A sketchup on steroids. A software that actually develops and evolves over time, taking full advantage of the power your computer can offer.
Ahhh.... PlusSpec?
yeah, that is why I think we need "only" for now, is a better engine under the hood of sketchup. All the rest can be done with plugins.
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I believe the answer "(yes|no) we (can|cannot) achieve this with plugins in the current SketchUp" depends on how we understand each other's imagination how SketchUp should work.
Plugin developers have no influence on the "core", and the scope, flexibility and capabilities of the core decide what wishes plugins can solve.
Can tomorrows's core be the same today's just with infinite performance improvements?
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The new title is OK but aren't you really looking for "An Alternative to Sketchup"?
@olishea said:
I just have a vision of a completely different 3D app that remains approachable, easy to use, dynamic, simple and innovative. An app that becomes as complex as YOU want it to be. An app that evolves with the times, evolves with your computer power, evolves with trends in 3D modelling. Forget the jargon, forget the conventions, we need something fresh; a whole new way to model in 3D.
You would be really better off to forget about a single 3D app and think about a web operating system that describes the component or collection of components and their properties and methods, links in a library like three.js to generate 3D graphics and selects small apps to translate methods to direct the library's functionality. By breaking up the competences in this way development is distributed amongst interested parties to evolve over time in line with all the prerequisites of your vision.
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I didn't even change the title. Which rascal did that?
No I don't want a New SketchUp!
haha
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@utiler said:
@olishea said:
I believe there is a niche for something that appears intuitive, easy to use, (dare I say it, fun) yet can be so powerful at the same time. A sketchup on steroids. A software that actually develops and evolves over time, taking full advantage of the power your computer can offer.
Ahhh.... PlusSpec?
Ahhh, windows only...
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You have a new program!
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Personally I welcome the BIM movement mostly for parametric and smart object modelling. I have no desire to become a bean counter... Anything to make modeling more real-world and faster.
There is talk about the modelling process and continuing with the SU + plugin paradigm or not, but really what always gets me about SU is the performance. I don't do anything NEAR the fancy and extensive work others show here, but just trying to show my client a decent model or render of their house I run up against the ability of SU to perform on larger models. I must spend time on workarounds tiptoe-ing about this polygonal ceiling for my simple projects.
Still we all find it workable, but if there's if there's a movement on jumping ship, it's always performance that comes to my mind.
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@pbacot said:
Still we all find it workable, but if there's if there's a movement on jumping ship, it's always performance that comes to my mind.
THIS is the priority; performance, performance, performance!
Thanks for the share Pilou, looks very promising. Blender is truly excellent but hardly accessible for less advanced users. Now if we could cross sketchup with blender; that would be cool!
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@olishea said:
Blender is truly excellent but hardly accessible for less advanced users. Now if we could cross sketchup with blender; that would be cool!
There's so much to like with both. However, they operate in such different worlds, learning curve being one of the major differences. Now personally, if Blender could steal some of SU's inferencing, I'd be 
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Yup.
Forget all the VR, iPad, peripherals etc for the time being. This will come with time, so long as the core allows it from the beginning and can evolve to accommodate other peripherals.
The learning curve is the biggie, Andy. Blender is sometimes like a completely foreign language to me and others. Yes it can do everything but not without some headache.
I'm thinking of a software between SU and Blender in terms of simplicity and performance. There is nothing really like that at this moment in time.
Even if I had Blender performance with a SU style interface and inference option, I'd be much happier, although not completely satisfied.
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It's coming!
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SketchUp is now owned by Engineers, you can already tell, they removed all the color from the icons, whats up with that? Is that an important improvement for me to go out and buy 2014? There is no speed improvement. No x64 rewrite. All we have is more stringent enforcement of Ruby code..... Big deal! It may have helped to add a competing Python API, a much preferred API over Ruby which never should have been chosen in the first place.
I was also hoping my GPU graphics card would help with rendering tasks!
In the mean time I will try to keep the dream alive
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Engineers should never mess around with anything that Architects use...!
I share Oli's frustrations, and it has got to the point where I doubt I can trust SketchUp these days.
The latest in my frustrations hinges around the North tool, or the absence thereof, and before anyone suggests using the North Tool plugin, let me say that the plugin doesn't cover all my bases.
It is time consuming, annoying, frustrating and unnecessary to have to fart arse around with setting up a project for a Sun Study and apply textures that become disoriented under the current system and never be certain that the information I am providing is correct.
There are legal implications for those of us who get a Sun Study wrong. We simply need to be able to set the location, GMT, allow for changes in seasonal time adjustments, and the date and times we require to be able to do what we have to do. Geo locating should be a choice instead of the only option...!
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