Let's build a new 3D software!
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Hi Oli,
I can understand where you are coming from as can others here that are becoming more and more disillusioned with SketchUp's on going development. It looks that its just not developing fast enough for many BUT on the other hand the it looks that the vast majority of its user-base are more that happy with SketchUp in its current state and ongoing development rate.
Every week I read through hundreds of 'Comments' from newbies signing up for SCF and not a day goes by that I don't read comments on how SketchUp meets the newbies exact needs. The old adage, 'if its not broken, don't fix it' comes to mind and for a company this does make good commercial sense. Well, that is until a 'better mouse trap' has been invented by others
From my personal perspective, SketchUp meets my drawing / modelling needs quite well. There are a number of additional features I would like in the area of initial 2D input possibly via the iPad or similar also direct PR output but, as I say, I'm happy for the most part.
Fair enough, we have a great community here, but again I feel the vast majority are satisfied with the status-quo.
Could something along the lines of what you propose be generated via this community independently? Maybe, but I doubt it. SketchUcation membership is fundamentally supportive of SketchUp as is ...... even if there are some ongoing rumblings of discontent in the background.
Should something new be developed that will satisfy seasoned and advanced SketchUp users that are 'growing out of' SketchUp? I think so! The questions are, What?, Who?, How?. It would be quite a big project requiring many man-hours and $??,???,???.
What?
SketchUp Ultimate' (as it has been mentioned as in the past) with all the required bells and whistles.Who?
Surely it would make sense that 'SketchUp Ultimate' should come from the SketchUp Team or an 'extended' SketchUp Team, one that would possibly incorporate the great group of programmers / developers that we see here on SketchUcation and elsewhere, day in day out?How
In most new product development cases there needs to be a demand before a company actually sits down and starts thinking / working on development. Its also the case that folks often didn't realise what they wanted until it was put in front of them simply because what is being put in front of them didn't exist beforehand! It could well be argued that this was the case for SketchUp back on 2000.So 'how' can this demand be proven? Oli, you mention Kickstarter! I am a fervent fan (addict really) of Kickstarter and have seen it produce some great results BUT I have also seen some abject failures.
Cado is an example of such a failure. The guys at Orange Juice Studios sought just £50K backing for their innovative iPad 2D app but only got 58 backers generating £3,000 in pledges! I understand they are continuing with the development of Cado but this must have shaken their believe a little.
If you would like to progress the SketchUp Ultimate 'dream' (as you call it) maybe SketchUcation can be used as a testing ground for potential backers that are prepared to pledge funds / man-hours or at least indicate such. You mention the setting up of a forum for this project! I am sure this could also be arranged here.
If after these things have been set up and worked on for a number of months and the results 'prove' that there is a genuine 'demand' also programmer commitment and financial pledges for such, Trimble SketchUp might be more favourably disposed to such a venture and get the ball rolling
Mike
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The ghost of a community-driven SketchUp alternative/successor has already several times come up (search for "OpenUp"). Users come to the conclusion they cannot bend SketchUp to fit their requirements for feature richness, performance, platform-availability. Some of them have converted to the "other" software, but for many it's hard to leave SketchUp because SketchUp has just enough goodness to make the decision so difficult.
@olishea said:
If you want to model a simple house from house plans, then go for it. If you want a highly complex organic model with perfect texturing, then go for it! Why should we need to use several different programs to achieve this?
Oli, I cannot resist imagining a world with the app that you describe, but did you do a feasibility analysis?
For anyone (community, company or Trimble) to develop a SketchUp-like but better application with the same maturity of preformance, inferencing, ecosystem, etc., it would take years to catch up to where SketchUp is now.
Users would still use and thus support SketchUp until an alternative is exactly on par with the original, even if its goal would explicitely be not to be a clone, people will try to compare it.
Is there enough momentum to develop (and finance! How much did Trimble invest to own SU?) something that will be for several years behind any commercial or free-as-in-beer alternative, with a small team of developers (that may not all have the required low-level technical skills), with the risk it could loose momentum and never reach its goal, and with the outlook it will never work our extensions (because implementing an analog API is forbidden) and with a negligible awareness level (new users would always discover "SketchUp" first in search results).
That is yet without numbers and estimates…However this topic shows there is something wrong: If SketchUp is not flexible enough to be "bent" to users' needs, can it claim to be a "platform"?
What do we expect from a platform so that we'd favor extending it rather than building a new platform from scratch? (→ wishlist thread) -
@mike lucey said:
Surely it would make sense that 'SketchUp Ultimate' should come from the SketchUp Team or an 'extended' SketchUp Team
With the secrecy that they have (and have the right to have) about future plans, do you think a forum could do funding and held up a feature request analysis with them "in the open" without also having open feedback of the development progress of these specific features? I think it's worth to follow this approach of community-SketchUp interaction.
Will SketchUp always continue building incremental improvements on the same basis?
Oli's vision of a modeling application that is
- convergent as in bridging the borders between devices, operating systems and input methods on one side
- and convergent as uniting advanced professional usage and light, occasional, creative usage into one single interface that can transform and satisfy for any situationthis is quite innovative, but would need to rethink 3d from scratch, and design the platform from the ground up to be scalable, extendible and usable on all different screens and devices. Imagine your favorite program would be ready to use either on a desktop with 3d glasses, with fingers on a tablet, or with a 3d pen or hands and a AR-glasses (video). Like wood-working and pottery take place in real space and use various tools depending on the situation, the same should be true for 3d modeling.
This could be the next step in 3d!
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I was thinking that with 3D printers becoming mainstream and getting better all the time the average non 3D user will want to get into modeling very soon and currently Sketchup is by far the easiest software around, but not easy enough for this "instant results needed" generation that want to do everything on a 4-5 inch phone or touch tablet.
Maybe it is time to rethink 3D as we know it.
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...and the name could be...FedUp.
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I think that whatever you guys decide to do on this. . .I am fully supportive. I haven't upgraded SU since V 8.
This SU community is soooo amazing and pretty much left me in the dust a long while back. You're doing spacecraft and sailing ships and awesome renders. I'm still struggling with components cutting holes.
I do however think I can be of great help in this endeavor.
Do you need somebody to park the cars or get some food?
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I understand exactly what you mean olishea. I feel that too.
In sketchup 2014 one thing that surprise me is the shadows improvements, making it 15x faster, it's the kind of background improvement that don't change anything for beginners but make all the difference, before I use a rule to only turn shadows ON to test, never used it on drawing. Now you can.
2014 also gets less bug splash. All I can ask ( for now ) is the same as you. LARGE MODELS, better frame rate, faster copy etc. I think it need a better engine under the hood. These changes is very core stuff, but is perfectly achievable.
But the way it looks and the way it is used maybe don't need to changed, its is "perfect" for beginners and very customized for advanced users.
Maybe trimblers can say whats been cooked in Boulder for us. 2015 is near.
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ohh and the three.js is fantastic. I have make some 3d stuff with canvas in javascript last year, is cool and very powerful.
But sketchup will always be a great modeler. I don't think in one size fits all, we are actually going to the opposite direction. today is extremely simple to import 3d between software, I remember the difficulty to export a model from sketchup to 3dstudio 6-7 years ago.
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@mike lucey said:
Hi Oli,
I can understand where you are coming from as can others here that are becoming more and more disillusioned with SketchUp's on going development. It looks that its just not developing fast enough for many BUT on the other hand the it looks that the vast majority of its user-base are more that happy with SketchUp in its current state and ongoing development rate.
Every week I read through hundreds of 'Comments' from newbies signing up for SCF and not a day goes by that I don't read comments on how SketchUp meets the newbies exact needs.
As you say, at this moment, SU meets newbies exact needs, well I'm not satisfied at all with this needs. I mean, the charm of SU is it's simplicity, its versatility, but let's not get trapped here. Is NOT ok to be perfect for newbies... because especially with SU, you end to be a newbie in very short time... few weeks, months perhaps. What then? I start learning 3 more apps to complete my circle of needs? I fail to see the efficiency in this. Of course, there are areas that will never (and should not) be covered by SU. But I must agree that SU it's a lot left behind. As the computing power increased, the complexity of the model had increased too. And texturing needs and graphic displaying needs... SU just don't use all hardware possibilities that are available now.
In my past I tried a lot of options, to combine several software to develop a more complex workflow, but it gets confusing from one point. The speed decreases drastically and I see no benefit of that. And my final option was to reduce the complexity of my services (and this is bad). -
@aerilius said:
Oli's vision of a modeling application that is
- convergent as in bridging the borders between devices, operating systems and input methods on one side
- and convergent as uniting advanced professional usage and light, occasional, creative usage into one single interface that can transform and satisfy for any situationthis is quite innovative, but would need to rethink 3d from scratch, and design the platform from the ground up to be scalable, extendible and usable on all different screens and devices. Imagine your favorite program would be ready to use either on a desktop with 3d glasses, with fingers on a tablet, or with a 3d pen or hands and a AR-glasses (video). Like wood-working and pottery take place in real space and use various tools depending on the situation, the same should be true for 3d modeling.
This could be the next step in 3d!
You describe it much better than I do.
You see where I'm coming from though. Some really great responses here, I was worried you would all think I'm crazy.
Yes, we totally need to rethink 3D. Currently you have to be of a very technical mind to approach complex model making. Sometimes even apparently simple models can become highly stressful to the point where it feels I need a phd in physics and maths.
Now I know anything is possible in 3D, but at what cost?This is where I believe current 3D apps are failing. 99% of people don't care about polygons, meshes, voxels, triangulation, quads etc. They just want to open an app and start modelling. Some of the jargon associated with 3D modelling makes it feel kinda old-school in the fact nothing has really changed.
I believe we should take inspiration from the real world. My wooden desk is not based on polygons. My mouse and keyboard are not based on polygons; they are solids. I believe that the end user need not concern themselves about polygons, neat meshes, quads. I understand these attributes bridge several 3D apps together, in the fact they follow the same convention but I don't believe this is the future. Is there no way we can develop a 3D app that writes the new rule books? A new language, a new core, a new demographic.
And yes, SketchUp is fine as it is. For beginners, for hobbyists, but within a couple of weeks we are already outgrowing it, looking for plugins or indeed other software. The mobile telephone was also "fine as it was", but it didn't stop us from developing it to the point where it is now more powerful than some computers.
If we always settle for a basic app, then they'll keep throwing out a basic app. Time and time we complain about the lack of development in SketchUp because nobody wants to do anything about it. Yes it has improved in a couple of regards, but come on, this is the 21st century....I should hope my 3D app can bloody well display shadows properly, I should hope my 3D app can EASILY support more polygons than a few cubes. I don't want to wait 20 minutes to subdivide a "complex" shape; other apps do this in a split second!
Let's face it; we love the sketchup interface, we love its easy-of-use but that doesn't mean we should settle for mediocracy. I find it inspiring that such an app does exist but SketchUp's simplicity is also its downfall in the fact that you have to use relatively complex workarounds to get the results you require. I've said it before; SketchUp is so simple, it has actually become quite complicated.
I would rather not venture into a Kickstarter project as such, I believe we should keep this in our community in the beginning to see if this is even feasible. Kickstarter is there to raise money essentially, I don't believe we have to go down that avenue for a LONG time. First we need the basics; people, time, ideas. Kickstarter is certainly not the only avenue for funding a project like this.
I do not profess to be a script writer, software developer, coder, mathematician. I just have a vision of a completely different 3D app that remains approachable, easy to use, dynamic, simple and innovative. An app that becomes as complex as YOU want it to be. An app that evolves with the times, evolves with your computer power, evolves with trends in 3D modelling. Forget the jargon, forget the conventions, we need something fresh; a whole new way to model in 3D.
Thanks Mike for such a comprehensive and coherent response.
Yes it does make sense that the SketchUp team does venture into this project. This is where I have my doubts though; I don't want the core of the software to be the same, I don't want the rate of development to be the same. I am sure that the SketchUp team are already busy on other things too.
I also don't want to rush into any Kickstarter crowd-funding until there is a defined path for this software to take. I would actually prefer if the users themselves fund this project, rather than a whole load of backers who have no interest other than donating a couple of dollars. I mean, what are we looking at? Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands? Thanks for the offer for a forum on this website.
Don't get me wrong, this is no personal attack on SketchUp or indeed the SketchUp team. Yes a majority of users are happy with SketchUp as it is, but these aren't the people I am aiming at. But saying that, maybe they are just settling for what they have. They don't want to venture into anything more complex because "this is what sketchup can do and I will limit my creativity to what it can achieve."
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Anyone remember the World Builder video?
Obviously this is way out of reach but great food for thought.
Look at the interface, the simplicity, the robustness. We can only imagine such a software being so immersive, but I'm looking at the way the 3D modelling is delivered, not the virtual reality aspect.
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Another thing i could think of would be a Sketchup "plugin" or interface for already existing 3d apps like Max or Blender. I don't know, if it would be possible to implement something like the inference engine on plugin level, or emulating the navigation of Sketchup. But IF it would be possible i think this would be great (at least for me it would be all i can dream of) the sketchup workflow with double clicking objects, push-pull, direct and precise numeric input and as most important thing the inference engine, combined with support for complex models, modifier stack and all the other things...
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I think the post should be renamed to get wider attention. 'Lets build a new Sketchup?' perhaps.
Also a vote might be informative. ( I would vote no, I am happy with SU and the pace of development, although I can understand the frustrations of power users like Oli ).
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@olishea said:
I believe there is a niche for something that appears intuitive, easy to use, (dare I say it, fun) yet can be so powerful at the same time. A sketchup on steroids. A software that actually develops and evolves over time, taking full advantage of the power your computer can offer.
Ahhh.... PlusSpec?
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@utiler said:
@olishea said:
I believe there is a niche for something that appears intuitive, easy to use, (dare I say it, fun) yet can be so powerful at the same time. A sketchup on steroids. A software that actually develops and evolves over time, taking full advantage of the power your computer can offer.
Ahhh.... PlusSpec?
yeah, that is why I think we need "only" for now, is a better engine under the hood of sketchup. All the rest can be done with plugins.
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I believe the answer "(yes|no) we (can|cannot) achieve this with plugins in the current SketchUp" depends on how we understand each other's imagination how SketchUp should work.
Plugin developers have no influence on the "core", and the scope, flexibility and capabilities of the core decide what wishes plugins can solve.
Can tomorrows's core be the same today's just with infinite performance improvements?
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The new title is OK but aren't you really looking for "An Alternative to Sketchup"?
@olishea said:
I just have a vision of a completely different 3D app that remains approachable, easy to use, dynamic, simple and innovative. An app that becomes as complex as YOU want it to be. An app that evolves with the times, evolves with your computer power, evolves with trends in 3D modelling. Forget the jargon, forget the conventions, we need something fresh; a whole new way to model in 3D.
You would be really better off to forget about a single 3D app and think about a web operating system that describes the component or collection of components and their properties and methods, links in a library like three.js to generate 3D graphics and selects small apps to translate methods to direct the library's functionality. By breaking up the competences in this way development is distributed amongst interested parties to evolve over time in line with all the prerequisites of your vision.
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I didn't even change the title. Which rascal did that?
No I don't want a New SketchUp!
haha
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