Safe place to store user-defined parameters

slbaumgartner

@slbaumgartner said:

but I don't think they are exposed in the SU Ruby API, so using them would probably require an external helper program or added Ruby file to get at plists in a clean way (Apple discourages reading and writing the files manually). I have no experience with them, but there are some plist generator and parser Ruby files on source forge.

@Steve,
that's exactly what this pair does, your entry in the com.sketchup.SketchUp.plist

 result = Sketchup.write_default "section",
>    "variable", "my_value"
> result = Sketchup.read_default "section",
>  "variable", "default"
>

in the .plist that shows as

	<dict>
> 		<key>variable</key>
> 		<string>"my_value"</string>
> 	</dict>

john

Which leaves me somewhat confused about what fredo is seeking to accomplish. Unless you are determined to keep your info somewhere separate from SketchUp's "defaults", what's the problem with using these methods?

Steve

Aerilius

I think for simple configurations (keys, values etc.) Sketchup.write_default is the ideal solution because it uses the API, and the API makers care about that it works.
But sometimes one wants to store more data or even files, so called "user data" (vs. "config").
I don't know what Fredo has in mind.

fredo6

Aerilius is right.

There are situation where you can persist parameters in the Sketchup section of the registry and some where this is not desirable or not possible.

My scripts use the registry for some parameters, and files for some others. By principle, it is never advised to overload the registry of a system, as it may easily get corrupted.

In addition, there are cases where you simply need to store files, not data, say components, materials, etc... that are created on the fly by the plugin based on user inputs.

Windows makes provision for a 'application data' location on disk. On MAC, there must also be a 'natural' place where such user files are stored. For instance, Microsoft Office use templates and other option files and they are not stored in the registry.

I think Sketchup cannot continue to propose only the Sketchup root directory to store files underneath. All new versions of operating systems are very picky on security and won't let you access this area from a program or embedded script like Ruby.

The objective of this post was to see whether the developer community would have ideas and would agree on a convention, because I assume many scripts are in the same situation.

Fredo

Chris Fullmer

I'm recently beginning to learn Mac - would:

~/Library/Application Support/

be the folder that is comparable to Application Data on Win?

driven

hi
have a look at this, it explains Apples viewpoint.

http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/FileSystemProgrammingGUide/FileSystemOverview/FileSystemOverview.html

Apples basic philosophy is
@unknownuser said:

Every app is an island

this includes any plugins written for any app.

Apple are moving away from any need for "uninstaller software", as far as they're concerned if a User or the "App Store", trashes or updates an app, then 'all' the files associated with the outgoing 'app version' will be gone on next restart of the mac. To achieve this, it's limiting 'where' you can easily write to, and for 'app approval' you have to prove this can be achieved.

If I remove anyones 'Plugin' for SU, I expect 'all' it's support files to disappear from my system. So does Apple.

I have one 'Plugin' that moves items all over the place, but if I remove it or even just disable it from the 'Extension Manager' it puts everything back in place and deletes it's 'watch-file'. If I then restart it it writes everything back again. The only thing that ever resides external to SU folder structure are temporary or the outcome of User input i.e. document files I want to keep.

john

Chris Fullmer

So John, what is the simple answer to Fredo's question? How does he safely write files to the HD on a Mac?
if Chrome downloads a plugin, it has to put it somewhere. Does it put it in the app bundle?

driven

@Chris

for SU the is most comparable to
@unknownuser said:

Application Data on Win
is ~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp

if I add a folder in there...
Sketchup.find_support_file("SketchUp", "john") SHOULD work, but it doesn't.

john
PS:
we cross posted so I'll add 2 answers
1.
@unknownuser said:

Google Chrome installs the extension into a randomly generated directory in ~/Library/Application Support/Google/Chrome/Default/Extensions and registers it in its Preferences file.

The User "Plugins" folder unless it needs to work when plugins are disabled. [really only for debugging or maybe a timekeeping tool]

driven

@Fredo

I feel your pain, love your plugins, maybe someone at Trimble or Steve can tidy this up better then me.

it writes a binary .plist in Users Plugins Folder, in your plugins subdirectory, you can then access it as you would the SU one, but it's your own.
Once written, it can be read/write i.e. doesn't need a restart [unlike SU's which does]
you can store all types of thing in it include binary images etc...

#!/usr/bin/env ruby
# DON'T RUN DIRECTLY FROM SKETCHUP SEE USAGE BELOW
# put this in your folder and call it to create a binary .plist on the Users mac
# write what you will
require "osx/cocoa"
require "pp"
# Create the plist and assign values
my_path = File.expand_path("~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/Plugins/FredoHome/__me_first/com.fredo.example.plist")
myfile = my_path
my_dict = OSX;;NSMutableDictionary.dictionary
my_dict['The_Color'] = 'blue'
my_dict['count'] = 15
#
# Output to File and print
my_dict.writeToFile_atomically(myfile, true)
pp my_dict

=begin
### Usage

make_plist = %x(exec ~"/Library/Application\ Support/SketchUp\ 2013/SketchUp/Plugins/FredoHome/__me_first/mac_plist.rb" 2>&1)
my_plist = File.expand_path("~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/Plugins/FredoHome/__me_first/com.fredo.example")

add2my_plist = %x(defaults write "#{my_plist}" animation-duration -float 0.12)

inQuire = %x(defaults read "#{my_plist}")
{
    "The_Color" = blue;
    "animation-duration" = "0.12";
    count = 15;
}

inQuire = %x(defaults read "#{my_plist}"  The_Color)
blue
=end

the format of this bit is important com.fredo.example.plist for defaults to read and write.
Lifted from the man page... https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/defaults.1.html

     Specifying value types for preference keys;

                 If no type flag is provided, defaults will assume the value is a string. For best results,
                 use one of the type flags, listed below.

     -string     Allows the user to specify a string as the value for the given preference key.

     -data       Allows the user to specify a bunch of raw data bytes as the value for the given preference
                 key.  The data must be provided in hexidecimal.

     -int[eger]  Allows the user to specify an integer as the value for the given preference key.

     -float      Allows the user to specify a floating point number as the value for the given preference
                 key.

     -bool[ean]  Allows the user to specify a boolean as the value for the given preference key.  Value must
                 be TRUE, FALSE, YES, or NO.

     -date       Allows the user to specify a date as the value for the given preference key.

     -array      Allows the user to specify an array as the value for the given preference key;

                       defaults write somedomain preferenceKey -array element1 element2 element3

                 The specified array overwrites the value of the key if the key was present at the time of
                 the write. If the key was not present, it is created with the new value.

     -array-add  Allows the user to add new elements to the end of an array for a key which has an array as
                 its value. Usage is the same as -array above. If the key was not present, it is created
                 with the specified array as its value.

     -dict       Allows the user to add a dictionary to the defaults database for a domain.  Keys and values
                 are specified in order;

                       defaults write somedomain preferenceKey -dict key1 value1 key2 value2

                 The specified dictionary overwrites the value of the key if the key was present at the time
                 of the write. If the key was not present, it is created with the new value.

     -dict-add   Allows the user to add new key/value pairs to a dictionary for a key which has a dictionary
                 as its value. Usage is the same as -dict above. If the key was not present, it is created
                 with the specified dictionary as its value.

     Specifying a host for preferences;

     Operations on the defaults database normally apply to any host the user may log in on, but may be
     restricted to apply only to a specific host.

               If no host is provided, preferences operations will apply to any host the user may log in on.

     -currentHost
               Restricts preferences operations to the host the user is currently logged in on.

     -host hostname
               Restricts preferences operations to hostname.

Chris Fullmer

Talking it over a little bit here with a Mac person, I still think that the ~/Library/Application Support/ folder is the right starting point. It exists on all Macs, and is specifically designed to be the location that support files get saved to. To me, that is the definition of what Fredo is looking for, and it is sanctioned by Mac. So it CAN'T be against their own "Every app is an island" viewpoint, or else they wouldn't have created it, right?

Chris Fullmer

Ok, I'm reading through that great Link John (very helpful to me as I try to wrap my head around Macs). 2/3 of the way down, in Table 1.3 it does explain the purpose of the Application Support folder:

@unknownuser said:

Use this directory to store all app data files except those associated with the user’s documents. For example, you might use this directory to store app-created data files, configuration files, templates, or other fixed or modifiable resources that are managed by the app. An app might use this directory to store a modifiable copy of resources contained initially in the app’s bundle. A game might use this directory to store new levels purchased by the user and downloaded from a server.
All content in this directory should be placed in a custom subdirectory whose name is that of your app’s bundle identifier or your company.

driven

I'll wait till your finished before I bite your head off...

slbaumgartner

@chris fullmer said:

Talking it over a little bit here with a Mac person, I still think that the ~/Library/Application Support/ folder is the right starting point. It exists on all Macs, and is specifically designed to be the location that support files get saved to. To me, that is the definition of what Fredo is looking for, and it is sanctioned by Mac. So it CAN'T be against their own "Every app is an island" viewpoint, or else they wouldn't have created it, right?

On iOS, apps are quite strictly sandboxed. Each app gets its own virtual disk image and can't read or write anything outside that image.

But in Mac OS X, this is not yet the case. An app can read and write anything for which the user has adequate permission anywhere on any drive. And, using shell scripting such as John has provided, a plugin can ultimately bypass the app's own API and rules to execute arbitrary UNIX commands.

The sandboxing rules today on OS X only exist as conventions that developers are asked to respect (required to respect if their code is published via the App Store). But, as John has alluded, Apple is trying to beef up the sandboxing because so many apps spew files all over the disk and this makes it difficult or impossible to completely remove an app. Rumor is that the next edition ("Mavericks", expected in the Fall) will have some changes in this regard.

So, whereas ~/Library/Application Support/<appnane>/... has been the conventional place for applications to save helper files, this could change.

Based on all of this, it seems to me that the only place that simultaneously provides:

assured read and write permission for the user
logical/code consistency between Windows and Mac
support within SketchUp for readily finding the folder by a plugin

is a plugin's own subfolder within whatever folder SketchUp is using to store user-added extensions. That is, when you tell SU to add an extension, SU itself chooses the appropriate folder ("Plugins" somewhere) and unzips your rbz file there. You have to have write permission in that folder, else SU couldn't install the extension. At that point your plugin code can query to find out where it was installed and can create more subfolders as well as write and read arbitrary files there. The plugin should not hard code any path such as "C:\Program Files\SketchUp\Plugins" or "~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/Plugins". It should use either Sketchup.find_support_file(...) or File.dirname(FILE) or something similar to get SU to reveal where the extension was loaded, and then use relative paths from there.

That approach both allows arbitrary files to be written and read, but also will survive if SU is compelled to change the physical folder where extensions are stored because OS security rules were tightened.

Steve

Chris Fullmer

@driven said:

I'll wait till your finished before I bite your head off...

I'm done John, you can start chewing

Chris Fullmer

@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows. And up until 2013, it should have been equally likely to fail on Mac as well, because plugins were being written to /Library/Application Support, which is public, which requires admin rights. Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.

Also, we're not writing in iOS, so their extreme sandboxing isn't a concern here (yet?). It will be interesting to see what Maverick implements. But its hard enough to develop for backwards compatibility and current compatibility....forward speculative compatibility might be a little too speculative for my taste.

Chris

PS - for the record, I have nothing to do with Macs and the decisions we make about how we handle the Mac files system, so don't let me ignorance scare you too much. They won't let me ruin SU on your Mac any time soon

slbaumgartner

@chris fullmer said:

@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows.

Chris - why would the write fail? It seems that if the user could install a plugin there, he should also be able to write a file there. I'm missing something about the real core of the problem...

@chris fullmer said:

And up until 2013, it should have been equally likely to fail on Mac as well, because plugins were being written to /Library/Application Support, which is public, which requires admin rights. Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.

Yeah, /Library/Application Support really should be only for files installed along with the app itself that need to affect all users. User-installed extensions, etc, should have been in ~/Library/Application Support all along. Before anybody bites my head off, I know that there have been previous discussions here disparaging ~/Library, but I think they were and still are wrong. However, that does leave the question on a shared computer of where/how to install extensions that you want to affect all users' instances of SU.

@chris fullmer said:

Also, we're not writing in iOS, so their extreme sandboxing isn't a concern here (yet?). It will be interesting to see what Maverick implements. But its hard enough to develop for backwards compatibility and current compatibility....forward speculative compatibility might be a little too speculative for my taste.

Chris

PS - for the record, I have nothing to do with Macs and the decisions we make about how we handle the Mac files system, so don't let me ignorance scare you too much. They won't let me ruin SU on your Mac any time soon

Yeah, I know SU isn't for iOS, just thought I'd throw that in as an example of how Apple's thought processes may be running. OS X is ultimately a wrapper around a full Unix system, and without losing all of the users (like John and I) who like to step behind the curtain now and then, there are limits on how far Apple can go.

And don't worry - whatever you come up with to mess up SU on my Mac, I'll find a way to defeat it

Steve

driven

@chris fullmer said:

Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.

For the record, SU could always use User Library and Steve and myself as well as many others have mostly done so...

AS far as I'm aware @Last suggested User Library or at least didn't stop it. It was always the mis-matching that caused problems,.
Progressbar.rb bought it to a head when yourself and others started linking to it and when it was in the 'other' folder your plugins would fail.
Unfortunately the wrong solution was quickly established on SCF and Google 'then' followed suit.

that my recollection, though flawed it my be...

john

fredo6

@unknownuser said:

On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.

What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.

Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.

My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.

Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/

On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.

What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.

Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.

My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.

Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?

Fredo

driven

%(#FF0040)[File.expand_path("~")
/Users/johns_iMac]

slbaumgartner

@fredo6 said:

@unknownuser said:

On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security.

From what I know of Unix, this doesn't make sense to me. Can you give me an example?

@fredo6 said:

The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.

I'll have to try that out and see if I can understand why that happens. Does this occur on all versions of SU, including 2013, or only on older ones?

@fredo6 said:

What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.

Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.

My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.

Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?

Fredo

First, you should understand that "~" is Unix shorthand for the user's home directory, usually /Users/<username>. /Library/Application Support is a central folder that all users can normally read, but non-admin users may not be able to write (varies). ~/Library is by default hidden by Finder, so many users don't even know it exists, but it is owned and normally writable by the user. It is also not normally viewable or writable by other users, and is meant to hold the application settings that are personal to that user.

And, yes, you should work within a subfolder of ~/Library/Application Support, not right there in the base. SU 2013 puts subfolders in ~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/. For example, that's where the Plugins fol

On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. [/quote]

From what I know of Unix, this doesn't make sense to me. Can you give me an example?

@fredo6 said:

The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.

I'll have to try that out and see if I can understand why that happens. Does this occur on all versions of SU, including 2013, or only on older ones?

[quote="fredo6":3f9n25ud]

What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.

Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.

My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.

Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?

Fredo[/quote:3f9n25ud]

First, you should understand that "~" is Unix shorthand for the user's home directory, usually /Users/<username>. /Library/Application Support is a central folder that all users can normally read, but non-admin users may not be able to write (varies). ~/Library is by default hidden by Finder, so many users don't even know it exists, but it is owned and normally writable by the user. It is also not normally viewable or writable by other users, and is meant to hold the application settings that are personal to that user.

And, yes, you should work within a subfolder of ~/Library/Application Support, not right there in the base. SU 2013 puts subfolders in ~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/. For example, that's where the Plugins folder lives.

Steve

driven

@fredo6 said:

The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.

Fredo,

excuse me, but that's a crock, the only reason it will fail to write is if the encoding is wrong...

UFT8 and Unix(LF) will always write to SU from ruby on the mac, if there errors it will fail, but it will write.

where is an example of it failing to?

john