Is this guy serious?!

Box

Ah.... now there in lies the rub......my whisky is more manly than your beer!

solo

@box said:

Ah.... now there in lies the rub......my whisky is more manly than your beer!

No, you just got more money than me.

steved

@box said:

A perfectly balanced argument, the only question left is which one of us is balanced.
[/quote]

Maybe only half fill America......

EscapeArtist

Interesting that the subject came up about the government coming to take guns. I have to lay out the poorly thought out logic of that idea. I also must question why so many of these arguments in favor of the status quo are never examined in depth by the people who use them? It's almost always a "tough guy" attitude or simply a resistance to change that seems to be the base for the position. Easily toppled, but all too quickly replaced with the next piece of dogma from the extreme gun supporter belief system.

But to the point - If the government comes for your guns, it's too late. In all senses of the use of the word. The individual, and all like believers, have lost. If you elect to fight (the tough-guy cold dead hands argument), you will lose. You CANNOT win against the government. All you will have done is shot your fellow citizens who are the soldiers or law enforcement officers sent to take the guns.

Congratulations, you are the next mass killer.

You have killed fathers, brothers, sons, and maybe even wives and mothers along the way.

APC rounds also serve only one purpose - penetrate metal or body armor and kill the human behind it. Completely unnecessary. If you also believe in some sort of uprising against the government, well... That means civil war. And the government is the least of your worries at that point because it means everything has collapsed. You'll be lucky to have food, water, medicine, fuel or power as those will have disappeared with the supply lines destroyed by war. You say you have guns to take/defend what you need? So does every other starving fool out there. You'll shoot them? Guess what, see the statement about killing fathers and sons. They shoot back, too. In that situation there is no loyalty to fellow gun owners. Again, you lose.

I can hear the Second Amendment argument bubbling up already, but let me add to my previous post about the subject. When the Second Amendment was written, this country was incredibly rural. The nearest assistance to help repel attacks might have been days or even weeks away. There was no standing military to help you if you were in an out of the way area. Our new country was also perpetually under threat of attack from the English, Spanish, and native population. Therefore it behooved our citizenry to be armed and possibly belong to a militia to protect themselves, their families and property from what may come.

Those days are gone. Times change. The world changes. To insist otherwise is foolish.

Stinkie

ccaponigro

@kmead said:

I guess our cohort who suggests that a man of firmness and virtue (I wonder if a woman could possibly be such an individual?) didn't take the time to watch the videos of the college students attempting to do just that and failing miserably. A few of them appeared to be of real firmness and virtue. Even the young lady who acquitted herself remarkably well failed to really have an effect on the situation.

I grew up in a very rural place in northern New England and used to hunt for food. When I was a hunter, the fish and game department rules for semi automatic weapons were that they could not have more then five rounds in the clip (or have a clip that held more than 5 rounds). I never needed more than two. Why anyone would argue they need a twenty/thirty etc round clip for any weapon used for hunting is beyond my understanding. If you can't take it down in under five you need to spend a lot more time at the range.

Sadly in this case no amount of gun control legislation would have solved the problem of keeping this individual from getting a weapon: he had no record of any kind to keep him from successfully getting any weapon he desired. Had he been properly treated for his mental illness he would have been much less likely to have felt the need to perform this heinous act and his mother would have known she had to keep those guns locked up, as all guns should be, away from the mentally infirm. Appropriate treatment would also have generated a record/paper trail that would show up in a proper background check keeping him from easily getting such a weapon.

Ultimately we will try and treat the effect and not the causes of this and all those other tragedies. Gun control is one of the answers, as in not having military grade killing tools all over (AK47 M16 etc related weapons).

Taking proper care of the mentally ill which requires not only a change in the care, but a change in the social attitude about such care, so those who need it will receive it, is a critical action on a national and state level to solve. This is not only a legislative change but a social engineering change so people who are clearly not normal or "right" need to be assisted by their families and the communities they live in, not leaving them to molder in homes or their apartments to descend into a madness the rest of us cannot understand or control.

Ok, yes of course females too. I have no problem taking away asault rifles. But with proper training and qualification we as a society must protect ourselves by the time the cops get there all they can do is clean up the mess. Sorry but that's the truth and we can't unmake guns. Have a super sparkly day.

jeff hammond

[off:20d4ecqq]
@unknownuser said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urJW5ed-5G4
[/off:20d4ecqq]

steved

@unknownuser said:

BRAVO!

I hear the NRA is about to make a statement opposing this idea

Stinkie

lol.

mac1

@unknownuser said:

lol.

Several thoughts:
*Hind sight gives you 20/20 vision;
*Lots of folks commenting on issues but have no back ground;
*Mental illness diagnoses is not a science but art.They have this big dictionary and if they can manage to find behavior in that related to a particular case then that is what you have. Case in point: They said son of friend had ADD but then x ray testing proved other wise. Of course then help for them from social services was terminated.
*My first hand experience: Because of concern about a person I went to the sheriff but after a lots of arm waving I finally came to the conclusion they had no interest in helping but only finding someone to blame. Luckily nothing has happen to date.
*Families must be the first line of defense. The have the day to day interaction and will know and will act if given the tools and support. All others have too many rice bowls to protect.
*Issue with what some call assault rifles ,but don't know what they are, can be solved by out law-ing any rifle which uses the gas generated form its discharge of extracting or loading round. IE only bolt actions allowed. I question limits on mags helping much. In my younger days hunting with single action 20 GA and flushing two pheasants at once the chances of getting both were good.

Products from Hollywood must be cleaned up. I have herad reports they donate more than the NRA to congress to protect their rice bowls. I am surprise someone has not used a bow yet because of the Hunger Games.The bow I used to shoot Carp in Lake Erie would put arrow through a bucket of sand. Question if what is being called assault rifle would do that.
I wonder where the mourning and sorrow is from us for all our southern neighbors killed by the action of your government via Fast and Furious. Of course are government are now the same ones with blood on their hands pushing for control of guns. What hypocrisy is that and shame on all of us for not demanding we let our neighbors know our sorrow.

steved

@mac1 said:

@unknownuser said:

lol.

"Issue with what some call assault rifles ,but don't know what they are, can be solved by out law-ing any rifle which uses the gas generated form its discharge of extracting or loading round. IE only bolt actions allowed. I question limits on mags helping much. In my younger days hunting with single action 20 GA and flushing two pheasants at once the chances of getting both were good."

Just for the sake of accuracy gas/piston weapons are not the only type of 'self loading' rifles there are others, such as recoil actions. 'Self loading' is the genre that would or should be banned. Just a detail though. Agreed though(self loading weapons) should be banned. Banning gun ownership based on mental fitness would be ineffective, and a legislative nightmare with only a marginal effect if any.

Oh and I thinkTom DC was laughing at the irony that the guy who wrote the brilliant "I suggest putting a teacher in every gun store"

another 'Jeff Johnston' is the Managing Editor of American Hunter and another 'Jeff Johnson' was the perp' of the sept shootings in 2012 at the empire state building.

Stinkie

Actually, it was the Pixies reference that made me laugh.

Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey

jeff hammond

[off:34zzvy45]
@unknownuser said:

Actually, it was the Pixies reference that made me laugh.

Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey
Jefrey with one F, Jefrey

haha.. i'm glad someone picked up on it

.[/off:34zzvy45]

jeff hammond

@mac1 said:

Several thoughts:
*Hind sight gives you 20/20 vision;

••right.. but how much hindsight do we need to have before we can turn it into foresight? i mean, we have thousands of years worth of hindsight & lethal weapons…

@unknownuser said:

*Lots of folks commenting on issues but have no back ground;

••i'm curious about what type of background you're expecting from someone before taking their words seriously ???

@unknownuser said:

*Mental illness diagnoses is not a science but art.They have this big dictionary and if they can manage to find behavior in that related to a particular case then that is what you have. Case in point: They said son of friend had ADD but then x ray testing proved other wise. Of course then help for them from social services was terminated.

••sorry, but you can't diagnose ADHD using X-ray.. (further- ADHD isn't a mental illness.. it's more of a trait)

@unknownuser said:

*My first hand experience: Because of concern about a person I went to the sheriff but after a lots of arm waving I finally came to the conclusion they had no interest in helping but only finding someone to blame. Luckily nothing has happen to date.

••my first hand experience: (age
gunfight in my living room with me present.. .30-06 vs. 44magnum… the man with the rifle shot first -- basically point blank into my dad's shoulder… dad puts a 44 round through the dude's heart and he dies right there in my house..

so yeah, most if not all of my views on guns has that experience ingrained.. so maybe if my dad didn't have guns then i'd be dead right now.. but honestly, that experience didn't teach me to buy guns so i can protect myself in the future… it taught me how lame guns are and i've chosen to avoid them for the past few decades..

(fwiw- my dad and the guy he killed were friends/acquaintances… something a little earlier in the day had set him off… couple that with high amounts of alcohol and cocaine in his blood (via autopsy).. now add guns to that mix!! ?? come on man.. use your brain.. if there were no guns, my dad wouldn't have been shot and his buddy would still be alive (oh, and i didn't yet mention his wife and kid were at my house too when this all happened)..

so, mac.. am i allowed to have an opinion on this issue or not?

mac1

@unknownuser said:

@mac1 said:

Several thoughts:
*Hind sight gives you 20/20 vision;

••right.. but how much hindsight do we need to have before we can turn it into foresight? i mean, we have thousands of years worth of hindsight & lethal weapons…

@unknownuser said:

*Lots of folks commenting on issues but have no back ground;

••i'm curious about what type of background you're expecting from someone before taking their words seriously ???

@unknownuser said:

*Mental illness diagnoses is not a science but art.They have this big dictionary and if they can manage to find behavior in that related to a particular case then that is what you have. Case in point: They said son of friend had ADD but then x ray testing proved other wise. Of course then help for them from social services was terminated.

••sorry, but you can't diagnose ADHD using X-ray.. (further- ADHD isn't a mental illness.. it's more of a trait)

@unknownuser said:

*My first hand experience: Because of concern about a person I went to the sheriff but after a lots of arm waving I finally came to the conclusion they had no interest in helping but only finding someone to blame. Luckily nothing has happen to date.

••my first hand experience: (age
gunfight in my living room with me present.. .30-06 vs. 44magnum… the man with the rifle shot first -- basically point blank into my dad's shoulder… dad puts a 44 round through the dude's heart and he dies right there in my house..

so yeah, most if not all of my views on guns has that experience ingrained.. so maybe if my dad didn't have guns then i'd be dead right now.. but honestly, that experience didn't teach me to buy guns so i can protect myself in the future… it taught me how lame guns are and i've chosen to avoid them for the past few decades..

(fwiw- my dad and the guy he killed were friends/acquaintances… something a little earlier in the day had set him off… couple that with high amounts of alcohol and cocaine in his blood (via autopsy).. now add guns to that mix!! ?? come on man.. use your brain.. if there were no guns, my dad wouldn't have been shot and his buddy would still be alive (oh, and i didn't yet mention his wife and kid were at my house too when this all happened)..

so, mac.. am i allowed to have an opinion on this issue or not?

Of course you do the only problem I have many make statements of "fact" that are not real. Oh I probably do that my self.

*We get all these talking heads on TV and because they wrote a book they are an expert.

*Sorry think you are wrong on the ADD. A doc in the area has developed the technique using X ray ( maybe that is the wrong word ) but it maps brain function while the patient does certain tasks.

*Sorry about your family experience. I had to more that once remove all firing pins for guns in the house, and hide knives because of threats from father. We can never know what the out come of an event would have been if circumstances had been different. As I said above hind sight gives us 20/20 vision.

*Use the brain. ARRG : We have now degraded to insults as usual in these types of discussions. That is a typical left approach.

*There has not been much press coverage but I think the same day of the shootings students in China were attacked with a knife. The worst US case of this sort was in 1935( Talking head hat I have not searched) but gun nor knife was not used. Some people would not like to hear those stats.

*This will go not over big ,but when I talked about the auto loading I mean police should not have these types of objects either. I live a short distance from Columbine and watched their action all day on TV and they would suit up, remove and suit up again while they let a teacher bleed out in the school and the gunmen had free hand to kill as they please. There is no reason for them to have assault rifles!

When you talk assault rifle look at the Swift 220 which is a varmint rifle. This was introduced in about 1935, has a muzzel velocity of about 4000 fps ( much higher that the 223) etc, very little drop at 500 yards and the hydro static killing power is high. Is this a weapon? No! It can become one if used for such. I get tried of folks calling any thing in the their talking points a weapon. A object only becomes a weapon when used for attack or defense in combat fighting or war.I guess that means any thing in our daily lives if not used properly??
*The right to bear arms ( note it is plural) is for the sovereign to protect them selves from a despotic government. History has shown that is necessary. What is one of the first things they want to do?? It has been shown time and again the police will not or cannot protect you. If you don't care that is your choice.

Stinkie

@mac1 said:

Use the brain. ARRG : We have now degraded to insults as usual in these types of discussions. That is a typical left approach.

You mean leftist? Are you suggesting that employing insults is a modus operandi typical of those adhering to leftist views? If so, wouldn't that count as an insult in itself? An actual insult, unlike what Jeff said?

EscapeArtist

Mac, I'm curious if you've read my thoughts on that Amendment. What benefit is there to the status quo?

Regarding x-rays and ADD, it would be beneficial to reasearch a subject before citing it as a basis to support an opinion. First, it isn't X-rays, it's an fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging), a device that is used to map brain activity. Second, there is no clinical basis supporting the use of fMRI to diagnose ADD or ADHD. Either your information is incorrect or the Dr. doing the testing is using a valuable medical resource improperly and costing the people and insurance companies a lot of money. There is current data from several sources supporting my position. One from Princeton:

@unknownuser said:

Despite the promise of brain imaging for aiding clinical diagnosis, currently no imaging techniques are recommended for this purpose...
. Princeton, 2012.

A random source:
@unknownuser said:

There is substantial evidence of a brain metabolic deficit in children and adults with ADHD. In patients with ADHD, cranial computed tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) show no consistent pattern of structural abnormalities in adults or children that would be of significant benefit in diagnosis of ADHD.

I also take exception to the use of the epithet "leftist" in your comments. If you choose to use that term I submit that the opposite side if the political spectrum is the one responsible for supporting cutting medical services to the mentally unstable (from families who cannot afford insurance, or the individual is unableto obtain it for multiple reasons), supporting loss of insurance due to pre-existing conditions (by opposition to changing the restriction) and by opposing or failing to contribute useful legislation regarding the sale and ownership of firearms.

Regarding the Chinese students in the recent knife attack - while it is a horrific incident, all of the children are still alive.

solo

steved

Just posting to bring the sentiment in this thread to the fore again as a gesture that it was not a "popular" topic to be relegated to somewhere less than the first page of this forum.

"Lest we forget"

jeff hammond

@steved said:

Just posting to bring the sentiment in this thread to the fore again as a gesture that it was not a "popular" topic to be relegated to somewhere less than the first page of this forum.

"Lest we forget"

hey Steve.. couldn't you of just typed 'bump' instead of all that?
I kid, I kid