Why You Should NOT Vaccinate Your Children
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@unknownuser said:
This thread was started to point out that the science of vaccinations is quite infantile and that you all should look closer at this science. Suggesting that you avoid the swine flu vaccine was a good way to get the conversation started.
For this sentence only i'm gonna give the benefict of the doubt in here.
"I'm starting to think people can't read."
Read all my post please. What's the focus of my post again? A litle tip: the conclusion start's with "So..."
"I have nothing against the medical profession. I have no respect for professionals that act like gods."
Have you ever consider that when you go to a doctor appointment and he recomends the X antibiotics, pill or whatever, it's maybe because, i don't know...a wild guess here, he know more that you in this matter? Study the same thing they have, have a little experience in aplying those knoledge, and then do more research about the two sides of the question to give a worthy opinion, and not another "absolute truth".
My boss had a discussion with me about design,3d,image last week (we're talking about the guy who discover that printers can't print white some days ago) because in the render i made for him, the white floor he wanted, were showing a little more dark in some areas. That areas were the zones where the shadows of the walls were falling...After speending some time explaing how shadows work (keep in mind he's an architect...) i thought to myself "whatever. It's not worth it", so i open photshop and hand painted the shadows white, so all the rest of the model had shadows except the floor that was completly white. After that he said to me "See?i was right, the floor is always like this, all white"...
Right know, you are my boss...
If you keep acting like that everyone else will do what i did: realize it's not worth it, and just say yes to everything you say... -
yes...
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you are basically suggesting vaccines don't work. just because you haven't yet caught something nasty.
so you would not take a vaccine for cancer or hiv if they offered us one? that says it all really.
we are supposed to be progressing in medicine not going back!
just another example: look at all the poor kids in africa who have polio. this can be prevented...and you say it shouldn't. crazy!
why you would encourage this is beyond me:
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Modelhead... Why do you try to make fun of this...
You have your opinion about vaccines - and we have ours...Don't play such a fool and pretend that you don't know why the polio vaccine haven't been distributed all over Africa...
For crying out loud... It's a developing country...I'm ashamed that you try to ridicule Oli's argument the way you do...
It shows that you have no respect...
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What?
This thread is still here?
Go home now!
He won't listen, you can't change his mind, he rejects your reality and substitutes his own. The logic, data, lucid and well thought out arguments are all trumped by "..but I don't believe you."
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Seeing as you have such a good grounding in the background of vaccines and medicine in general, could you please explain your ideas as to why polio, smallpox and other such previously common viral diseases are now largely absent from first world countries?
I also agree with your comments about the body being much better at healing itself than any medicine. As some intelligent chap once said, medicine is just distracting the patient while the body sorts itself out. Thats not to say doctors cant lend a helping hand, of course.
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@unknownuser said:
There has to be an explanation...I have had no vaccinations...I don't get sick...I have spent most of my life treating myself....and I am not going to knock on wood.
this should be your new avatar
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And then he got vaccinated.
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solo im in serious stitches right now
thats so funnyedit: it seems to me modelhead you are just looking for every excuse not to take vaccines.
tell me something, if you went to africa for a holiday.....on safari for example.....would you not get vaccinated?
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@unknownuser said:
I can't answer that question Remus but neither can medical science. There are many claims based on mathimatical models but no hard facts and no process through which the effectiveness of vaccines can be qualified....if you have come accross one I do want to read about it cause somehow if it exists it has escaped me for many years.
Therese plenty of reading here: http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?searchTerm=vaccine&fieldName=AllFields&journalFromWhichSearchStarted=
im interested to know why you think its not possible to test the efficacy of a given vaccine. Surely its a case of give vaccine to x thousand people and dont give it to another x thousand people then compare rates of infection in the 2 groups.
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Catastrophic sense of humour failure here.
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and right there is why you'll never win guys and girls.
perfect example of what I pointed out earlier. evidence is given and excuses why it's wrong are given back with NO evidence of why it's wrong. just handwavium and vague phrases.
give up. you cannot win.
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You will never find proof in the real world, then, as it does not exist in the form you're looking for. Do you want me to continue? as if i do so it'll be a rather lengthy explanation of the scientific method and statistics, and to be honest i dont want to type it all out if your not going to listen.
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he won't listen Remus. his mind is locked in stone.
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Thats not the spirit of arguing on the internet
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So no piece of scientific evidence will convince you of the efficacy of vaccines?
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OK, we have a difference of opinion on the statistics. I believe they are overwhelming, similar to the statistical and anecdotal evidence that a building I'm about to enter isn't likely to fall down. Some buildings do fall down, but usually they don't...
So if we disregard the statistical evidence... What about cause-and-effect reactions such as those upon which vaccines are designed? You believe the body is the best at healing... that is what vaccines do: they encourage the body to create their own healing defenses.
(1) The vaccine is administered. It contains weakened or dead forms of the disease.
(2) The immune system identifies these foreign substances (viruses and bacteria), also known as antigens. (The body is doing the work.)
(3) Once antigens are identified, the immune system develops proteins that circulate in the blood. These proteins are called antibodies. They fight the infection by killing the antigens. Antibodies are made by white blood cells called lymphocytes, also known as B cells. The main purpose of B cells is to create antibodies to fight infection. (Again it is the body that is doing the work by creating the immunity itself.)
(4) The body stockpiles these antibodies so they are available to fight off the disease if exposed later on. Unfortunately, antibodies are disease-specific, so previously acquired chickenpox antibodies, for example, will be useless if faced with other diseases.The example is from http://health.howstuffworks.com/vaccine1.htm
This is exactly how the body works to fight a full-blown disease (and there is plenty of stunning visual evidence of this under the microscope when examing blood).
Is there something about the basic methodology that you believe is wrong or ineffective, as opposed to the overwhelming statistics you ignore? Vaccinations are designed to force a body with an effective immune system to create the defenses in the same way that it does if you got the disease. The difference is that some diseases are often fatal, so having the body do this with dead or weakened versions of the disease allows the body to do it without the same order of magnitude of side-effects.
[Edit: Sorry. Didn't realize my post was so long while I was ranting...]
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I think you make one mistake in the observation -- that people claim we can contain the proliferation of viruses with a vaccine. There are vaccines for only about 30 viruses. They happen to be some of the most severe diseases to have effected large numbers of people in wealthy,scientifically advanced nations (hence the incentives for people to solve them: either money, or it affects them where they live).
There are certainly not vaccines for very many diseases, or very many of the most severe (like malaria). Our immune system protects us from many, many diseases all the time. Vaccines, good health, vitamin D, and lifestyle can all help. Vaccines happen to be one direct method to force the body to prepare a defense for a particular disease. Many others came from your mother if you were breast fed...
Some viruses mutate more frequently than others. But many mutations don't change the way in which the body recognizes them and defeats them. The good news is that measles, chicken pox, and polio are examples of viruses that haven't mutated much at all. The flu virus does mutate often, hence new versions of flu vaccines from year to year.
Vaccines tend to be the most effective to get the body to develop stockpiles of antibodies without the damaging effects of the disease. And yes, vaccines can have side effects for some individuals, but they tend to be far fewer and far less severe than the effects the diseases themselves produce.
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This has become a very black and white argument.
I think that is the essence of Modelhead's argument: vaccinations will not make you healthy or less prone to disease if you are unhealthy by nature. As has been said, virus strains change, so in a first world country where the risk of a serious outbreak of disease is lower, the arbitrary jab you are getting anyway needs questioning as the strain that it vaccinates against is most likely extinct, not the strain that you will need protecting against in a future epidemic. Modelhead please correct me if I'm wrong.
I am not against vaccinations but I feel very sceptical about tamiflu - a lucrative product that is being prescribed over the phone by people with no medical training, or any vaccination that we are told is necessary for everybody to have.
I have nothing to back this up except my own observations; I know plenty of people that eat well, live a healthy lifestyle but have seldom had vaccinations, if any, and don't have their kids vaccinated. They are almost never ill, their kids aren't often ill either.
I also know plenty of people who don't look after themselves properly, but go to the doctors constantly for jabs for themselves and their kids. The doctor must see them so much, he has probably carved their names on the chairbacks in the waiting room. These people seem to get every flu and cold, many of their kids have asthma, I could go on. In short, they are not healthy people.
And for the record, I have been to Africa, admittedly I knew that I would not even go near anywhere that would put me at any significant risk. I took no vaccinations and came back fine. -
Bruce, i dont see the fact that the body defends itself from thousands of viruses a day as a good reason not to try and protect ourselves against the ones the body cant protect against as effectively.
Take rabies for example. Theres only one recorded case of a person surviving the disease unvaccinated and it's well documented that if you receive the vaccine in a reasonable time your very likely to survive, whereas your chances are practically nill without the vaccine. Why is it unreasonable to take such a vaccine to improve your chances of surviving if you do happen to get infected?
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