Why You Should NOT Vaccinate Your Children
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@tim said:
@unknownuser said:
That is understandable and further the WHO has its own ambiguous definition for Pandemic. The severity of the disease is not part of the measure
Pandemic has nothing to do with the severity of an illness it is to do with the geographical and demographic spread.
Isnt that what bruce just said? (without the part about geographic and demographic measures.)
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You know. What'sinteresting (I've had a beer too and slurring wordsitseems) about this forum. A lot of people with a rapport about a particular technical interest, but holding the gambit of views otherwise. Much better conversations than going to sites where everyone agrees with you (or going to sites just so you can troll for those who don't).
I don't have a blind faith in science but I tend to see it as a self-rectifying system (like democracy should be) and it's accessible to criticism. I think it has done better than other systems of faith in debunking itself over time. Thatsall for now...
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I'm not against vaccinations. Not a parent yet, but when I am, I will find it very hard to agree to having my child vaccinated against every disease that the NHS insist pose a significant threat in a first world country. I know plenty of people whose kids have had few or no vaccinations. Far from being at deaths door, these kids all seem healthy and are rarely ill.
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@unknownuser said:
I think that medicine and drugs are much like religion...
Medicine is quite the opposite of religion. Medicine, in opposition to religion, is based on evidence.
@unknownuser said:
I am saying clearly that my children and their children and many others I know in our community have refrained from vaccinations..they have grown up healthy, happy and in large, devoid of the diseases listed in this thread.
What is happening here is that you are sponging on other people's vaccinations. Between you and disease is a thick wall of people in their senses that are vaccinated. If the antivaccine group grows much larger, then the spread of epidemics will become much easier-as has already happened with measles in some countries.
Anssi
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I love how Science and Medicine are always used synonymously.
Let's not forget we are talking about viral and infectious disease, which will by nature continue to mutate. Each mutation is one mutation away from being deadly or from becoming no longer dangerous. Virus such as influenza have historically run their course and mutated to the point of ineffectiveness with or without vaccine intervention. A vaccine may be effective for a particular strain, or it may do more harm than good.
I for one see no need to give a child four doses of Hepatitis B vaccine before they're 18 months old when one can only get the disease through blood or sexual contact, yet it's on the CDC immunity list and every child in the US receives this vaccine. Or lining the little girls up in Texas for their mandatory HPV vaccine because the Gov. Rick Parry decides to pass an executive order mandating the vaccine for all school girls, which was produced by Merck which he received campaign contributions from.
Let's not also forget who is making the vaccines.....for profit. Look at the track record of any of the major drug companies. Look at Merck, the largest pharmaceutical company...who makes Gardisil (http://www.naturalnews.com/025613.html), which the doctors keep insisting that I give to my daughters. They previously falsified information to get the drug Vioxx passed by the FDA, only to have it recalled after killing people. Or how about Bayer corporation who was caught knowingly selling a vaccine that was contaminated with HIV. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs&feature=player_embedded
Can anti-venom save you from a snake bite...will antibiotics save your life if you have a rampant infection...of course. Doesn't mean that preemptive medicine is always the best procedure and best for your immune system.
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@unknownuser said:
... One stat I found most interesting was the fact that of the 350 million US residents only just over 150 million have taken a flu shot. The 200 million that did not commit to a flue vaccination are showing better stats than the group of 150 million that did.
It is the weakest and most susceptible who get the shots, and not the healthiest. Therefore a raw comparison of those two broader groups rather than of similar groups (say 70 year olds that did vs 70 year olds that didn't) tells you very little if anything.
@unknownuser said:
... the WHO has its own ambiguous definition for Pandemic. The severity of the disease is not part of the measure although there announcements have always caused a great hue and cry followed by warnings and insidious promotion of a pharmacological remedy. That’s free enterprise…..not medicine.
On July 11th the WHO declared their first Pandemic alert in 41 years. This site might help you understand the level of ambiguity in their declarations: http://www.upmc-biosecurity.org/website/focus/2009_H1N1_updates/isssue_briefs/2009-06-11-A_Closer_Look_WHO_Pan_Declaration.html
Note that at all levels it is based on the influenza virus, therefore the severity of the disease at a baseline is significant.
@unknownuser said:
...Of 350 million US citizens only 150 have ever had a flu shot so I guess the other 200 million are sponges like me...
I don't believe he wasn't referring to a flu shot as much as to the broader vaccinations like for the Measles, ChickenPox, and the like. Flu shots are given annually to some people because the influenza viruses tend to differ significantly through mutations. But your children are much less likely to get Measles if there is lower exposure from other children.
The principal is similar to computer viruses -- somebody without virus protection benefits from those that do because they aren't as likely to receive an infected email...
The problem many have with some people's children opting out is that there are children with severe immune system problems, or allergies that can not have the vaccine. They are more likely to be exposed through children that have not had the vaccine who can carry and spread the diseases. So while the unvaccinated children might be generally healthy, they can also endanger the lives of others as carriers that those who have had the vaccine cannot do.
-- William (no kids...)
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The logic of the whole thing is pretty straightforward, though. Lots of unvaccinated people = lots of people who could potentially get the disease in question. Lots of vaccinated people = much fewer people who could potentially get the disease in queston.
Oh, sorry, i forgot vaccines are unproven.
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@remus said:
Oh, sorry, i forgot vaccines are unproven.
No there is proof. It says it in Wikipedia and everything in there is fact.
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You can always follow the citations if you question whats written, its not that hard really.
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@earthmover said:
No there is proof. It says it in Wikipedia and everything in there is fact.
Thank you, Adam. I needed a laugh.
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I'm dipping out of this argument, but look at this
I have heard that there is a connection between the Tamiflu company and Mr Donald Rumsfeld. Donald's track record for trustworthiness makes me think if he has anything to do with Tamiflu I will never take it under any circumstances.
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Speaking of vaccines, medicine, and religion...
@unknownuser said:
Pork byproduct in swine flu vaccine
...FOX 35 found that the swine flu mist and injectable vaccine both contain something called hydrolyzed porcine gelatin. The Centers for Disease Control confirms that the ingredient is a pork by-product used to promote temperature stability… and allow for refrigerated storage...
The whole article is here: http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/health/dpgo_101509_swine_vaccine_ingredients_4065304
Ironic or what? I want nothing to do with that vaccine...
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@d12dozr said:
Speaking of vaccines, medicine, and religion...
Pork byproduct in swine flu vaccine
...FOX 35 found that the swine flu mist and injectable vaccine both contain something called hydrolyzed porcine gelatin. The Centers for Disease Control confirms that the ingredient is a pork by-product used to promote temperature stability… and allow for refrigerated storage...
The whole article is here: http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/heal ... ts_4065304
Ironic or what? I want nothing to do with that vaccine...
If you don't want animal "by-products" in your system you'll have to give up more than vaccines: jam, jelly, marshmallows, wine, beer, chewing gum, cheese, skittles (actually, pretty much any red candy)...
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
You home school? 'cos here in the states no vaccination or inoculation = no public school
That is an unfortunate denial of freedom. In Canada we are allowed a choice.
And as a Canadian myself, I choose to protect my family from disease and suffering, as well as protecting my fellow citizens by ensuring that I am not a source of the same.
Vaccinations have decades of strict scientificly measurable results which prove beyond a doubt that they work. I'm frankly disgusted that people refuse to protect themselves and their loved ones. Arm yourself with actual verifiable empirical data, instead of voodoo and hearsay, and you'll learn a thing or two.
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modelhead you shouldn't promote people not vaccinating their kids. Just because your children have been fine doesn't mean others will be the same. Kids die of preventable illness all the time through no vaccination....not just flu to worry about is there now.
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
medicine is based on evidence.
You will have to work hard to prove that generalization
says it all. so next time he breaks a bone, needs to have an operation, or needs medication, do we get to call him a hypocrite? I mean.. there's no evidence that Aspirin works... or that he needs Oxygen. thats all that unproven medicine stuff. lets all be happy as we get our humors in balance and pass the leeches for the bleeding.
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I prefer cupping myself, no worms...
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If vaccination is unproven, how come the last recorded case of smallpox…something that has been with us since forever…was recorded in Somalia in 1975?
This was eradicated by means of a ruthless program of vaccination and isolation on the part of the WHO and Rotary International.
The same organisations have just received massive funding from the Gates Foundation to do the same thing for polio.
As it states in this article, the remaining cases are clustered in a few places in the back of beyond…yet when I was a kid, seeing older people in leg braces was not unusual. It was vaccine that made the difference. -
I'm as cynical about political and corporate collusion in widespread vaccine programmes as the next guy, but the vast majority of medical research is in total agreement that vaccines work. I'm no expert, but my fianceé is a doctor in immunology and although I only understand about 2% of her chosen specialism I have learned a little about how the immune system operates at a cellular level. The ability of the immune system to remember and recognise pathogens which it has previously encountered (carried by dendritic cells to the lymph nodes) by producing memory T- and B-cells is fundamental to its functioning (and to its malfunctioning i.e. allergies and autoimmune diseases). In fact, as far as I'm aware it's so fundamental that in the 21st century research is focused on a much deeper understanding of how dendritic cells and T- and B-cells actually work rather than if they work. After all, tyre companies spend their time and money researching rubber compounds and tread patterns, not whether wheels should be round.
I'm extremely wary of "Well, it never did me any harm!" advice. It reminds me of the comedian George Burns in his 90's proudly puffing away on his trademark cigar saying it "never did me any harm". It used to make me so angry- just thinking of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who spend the last decades, years, months, weeks and days of their lives hacking up blood and gasping for breath while emphysema and lung cancer ravages their bodies... but we don't see them hidden away in hospital wards and hospices- we saw George Burns beaming from the tv as though he is the true face of elderly smokers everywhere. I liked the guy as a comedian, but he should have kept his medical advice to himself.
Bruce,
In spite of what I've written above, I'm not really implying it's the same thing to suggest smoking doesn't do any harm as it is to suggest that we shouldn't automatically vaccinate our children. I just mean that the "it didn't do my kids any harm" argument is pretty weak as it's impossible to prove or disprove that your kids or grandkids would ever have caught those diseases anyway. Maybe they were never exposed to them.... maybe they've just got good genes!
Long live healthy debate!
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Tried that one already
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