Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@solo said:
Good observation, I am not sure how to answer this. I guess I had to have been a very staunch believer to hang around nightclubs in dodgy areas at midnight preaching to the drunk and disorderly, to spend more time at church and with strangers than with my family. Maybe I have one of those extreme personalities that is either 100% or nothing, I dunno, however I do know that I was wrong, very wrong and see the danger in such organizations. I am not calling all Christian denominations or non denominations dangerous or cult like, but I will say the ICOC is by my own experiences.
I'd probably say understandably so. I've heard stories which sound much worse than your experience by folks who are actually still in the church. I think you'd be happy to know that much of what you're expressing has been rectified by people not unlike ourselves who saw the unbiblical practices which were being implemented. There are always frustrations but at least the frustrations now are not those of the past or I'd have found a different church some time ago. Of course, I understand that is little consolation at this point and at any rate, from your perspective those practices ended up leading you to the truth.
I do find the evangelistic sort of parallel interesting though (and certainly not limited to just yourself). On one hand there are a group of people who feel they have the truth which leads to a more fulfilling and consistent life, aligned with how the world really functions. There's a very humanitarian sort of desire to share that knowledge with others that they, too, might know the truth. And on the other hand you have the Christians, in the same boat. We all seem to wrestle with the dichotomy of how to express our beliefs in such a way as to be convincing and convicting without sounding irrational and turning folks off completely. That's the impression I'm coming to at least. Something I'm not sure I've every really considered before.
How would you express your...framework - the lens through which you view your experiences. As a belief? A worldview?...
-Brodie
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Hi Guys sorry for my poor English first. I read most of the comments and saw things mean like "I read smtg. in bible thats false this church say this other say that ...." and now I become atheist.What about thinking maybe it is corrupted!What about God send a new messenger.Is that so easy for you guys thinking like "if there is no God that proove my idea I live how I want to live believers not and now all we dead" if there is we will see what happens.Sorry for English again I hope you understand me
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@unknownuser said:
@solo said:
Regurgitate your versus somewhere else, the adults are talking now.
Hello, adults!
To be āborn againā is not enough tu believe in God, but you have tu REPENT, with sincere sorrow for past, and with grateful devotion for the future...!Define repent.
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@dropout said:
Define repent.
Little about repentance...
All people have sinned before God, but too few recognize this and regret for their past life. However, the wages of sin is death...! For Man to be saved, Jesus Christ took upon Himself all the sins of mankind, and was punished in the place of sinners. Those who repents, confess their sins, thank to the Redeemer/Savior for His sacrifice, recognize Him as their Lord, renounce to their sinful way, and trust from now in God.At 1 John 1:9 is written:
āIf we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.ā
Sins must be identified, named and confessed! When we recognize sins, God forgives us!
God does not forgive excuses - many seek only to apologize, to justify them ... But God forgives sins confessed with contrition, that caused grief to us...There is a āpalpableā condition, that God puts to all that they want forgiveness, condition that showed us by Jesus in the prayer "Our Father in heavenā:
āforgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtorsā (see Mattew 6:12)
We are aware of this stringent act, just in the next verses:
āFor if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.ā (Mattew 6:14-15) -
@ āSoloā.
You were a seasonal believer in the āChurch of Christā, because in that church, there are two wrong āstepsā in the āPlan of Salvationā: Step 5 and Step 6ā¦Step 5 says: āBe Baptized for the Remission of Your Sinsā, but Baptism does not forgive sins, does not saveā¦ It has another role!
Step 6 says: āBe Faithful Unto Death! To continue in Godās grace, you must continue to serve God faithfully until death...ā
But nobody can be so through his efforts and meritsā¦!
You have learned that: āUnless they remain faithful, those who are in Godās grace will fall from grace, and those whose names are in the Book of Life will have their names blotted out of that bookā, but God does not make rectification. God does not erase what He wrote in the Book of Life ! -
@jason_maranto said:
I've known many people from religious backgrounds who have "fallen away" -- and I have to ask myself is it really God they are recoiling from or the human elements of religion.
@dropout said:
When you critique the current North American view of Christianity you are critiquing a caricature of what following Christ really means.
@solo said:
I agree, the American version of Christianity is nothing Christ like, however it's spread across the globe I have seen the same 'Christians' in both South Africa as well as Australia. Jesus would not stand a chance in our world today, and the funny part is it would be the Christians that would make sure of that.
@unknownuser said:
That air of individuality, self-accomplishment and freedom your specific brand of christianity seems to have about it ... pretty much a foreign thing, over here. Look at a Bosch painting for reference.
Again about this important topic http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/2884/
To know more about the true Christianity I suggest reading works of this great mind. -
@unknownuser said:
@ āSoloā.
You were a seasonal believer in the āChurch of Christā, because in that church, there are two wrong āstepsā in the āPlan of Salvationā: Step 5 and Step 6ā¦Step 5 says: āBe Baptized for the Remission of Your Sinsā, but Baptism does not forgive sins, does not saveā¦ It has another role!
Step 6 says: āBe Faithful Unto Death! To continue in Godās grace, you must continue to serve God faithfully until death...ā
But nobody can be so through his efforts and meritsā¦!
You have learned that: āUnless they remain faithful, those who are in Godās grace will fall from grace, and those whose names are in the Book of Life will have their names blotted out of that bookā, but God does not make rectification. God does not erase what He wrote in the Book of Life !This probably isn't the thread for a Christian debate but as we've long since gone off the rails of the original topic I'll bite. In "Step 5" you begin with essentially quoting a verse from Acts but then misinterpret the verse as well as the Church of Christ position. Baptism isn't an issue of 'what' saves us (the Church of Christ teaches that God saves, not baptism), but 'when' we're saved (by God).
And I've never heard your "step 6." Where is that quote from? The Church of Christ doesn't teach eternal security which I guess is probably what that quote is getting at. But I suspect you're misinterpreting this to be a more harsh teaching that it is in practice. The only practical difference is that I believe Pete may very well have been a sincere and committed Christian for a time whereas you would say he never was a Christian.
-Brodie
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
How would you express your...framework - the lens through which you view your experiences. As a belief? A worldview?...
I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, are you are asking how I make sense of things after living half my life as a devout theist to now being atheist?
Originally I just meant what terminology you would use. I found myself wanting to talk about your 'beliefs' but many atheists see that word as some sort of an affront. But your question was more towards where I was ultimately going. As a Christian to be as committed as you were you must have strongly believed that not only was there a God but the world was, in fact, a broken place which God was in the process of restoring - not to mention how we are broken people who likewise need restoration. I'm sure you explained Jesus to countless people after the bars closed and the sort of radical life he lived and that he'd died for them. And you must have felt that you had some relationship with God through prayer and reading the Bible, but also through the community you guys had developed by sharing your faith together and being open with eachother.
The conversion from that sort of belief system, even with it's frustrations which you've touched on, into a worldview which says that all of those experiences were self-deceit at best, and perhaps destructive at worst, must have been a terribly difficult process, no?
-Brodie
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Wow Pete, Thanks for sharing your story. The power of human relationships is what strikes me in your story. It's very unfortunate when it is used to control people especially in cutting off meaningful contact with the "outside" (see Waco for an extreme example)
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Yes, thanks Pete for sharing.
My experience with the church is so much different. I belong to a large Methodist church which is mission oriented. Our Sunday School teacher is a PHD in Genetics and brings a unique view. In our church evangelizing is encouraged but not required and tithing the same. We have many missions going on at any given time in Honduras, Ghana, Costa Rica as well as many locally. All of which share the gospel but don't push it. One of my friends said of a building mission he went on that God/Jesus was never brought up, they just loved the people they were serving. I have also been involved with the music ministry since I was 16 on and off. I could easily say that my church going experiences have been on the "happy happy joy joy" side of the spectrum. However I do not have my eyes so tightly shut that I don't explore, think, reason, debate or question my belief. -
Thanks for sharing your story Pete. You certainly have an interesting perspective on the matter having been devout on both sides of the issue. I can certainly appreciate the relationship aspect you're referring to and how that would make your decision very difficult - which means your reasons for becoming an atheist must have been very strong. I continue to find intriguing parallels in our stories.
Can you talk a bit more about your transition not just from ICOC to another church or from Christianity to some other religion, but from theism to atheism? Many people, I think, have faced some of those same catalysts which you did but the result is switching churches or coming to a different understanding of scripture. How, for you, did the road go far beyond that and into atheism?
-Brodie
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Boofredlay, I can't claim the same track record with church but your description, I think, touches on much of what I think God envisions his church to be like and the knowledge that those sorts of places are out there continue to give me hope.
From a Christian perspective, Pete's experience certainly speaks to how important it is that we Christians are careful to live out the gospel and that our churches look more like your description, not to mention that we're interpreting scripture correctly, and being intellectually honest.
-Brodie
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Who had a form of faith, but fell, and never returned, fits into these two possibilities:
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He just had the impression of being āborn againā and had no from where to fall, because he actually trusted in himself, in his merits. He knew something ABOUT God, but did not KNOW HIM, closely, intimateā¦, even if he attended any church for decades.
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He sinned again, in any way, and believes that there is no more salvation for him, because he does not know how God resolve it:
āMy dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the FatherāJesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.ā (1 John 2:1-2)
Sin can not abduct to me the salvation and eternal life (Jesus Christ paid for all my sins - past, present and future oneā¦), but may diminish my joy to be in intimacy with the Lord, my Redeemer.
Therefore, as a child of God, I should ensure my way of living, I have to confess sins that have ever appeared in my life, so that, through His forgiveness, to enjoy the restored fellowship.
At Ephesians 4:30, it says so:
ā Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.ā
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Anyone notice the Google logo today? Today is Nicolas Steno's 374th birthday.
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I'll add this to topic. About the relation between science and religion. I know nothing about quantum, but my friends physicians told me science and religion are beginning to merge on quantum level.
"In todayās world we tend to perceive the world in the classical mode, yet we could, and sometimes do, perceive aspects of it in the direct mode as well. However, our left-hemisphere dominated perceptual mode represses information that doesnāt accord with our established ways of thinking. Only in spiritual, religious, or mystical experience does such information penetrate to our everyday awareness - and then, just fleetingly."
http://artoflivingguide.org/thinking/cosmic-symphony-deeper-look-quantum-consciousnessI'd say it is hard to discuss this things using only classical mode of thinking. And that's where all the misunderstandings are. For unknown things one need intuition. Believing needs all human, not only his logic, which is IMO a small part of him. The biggest problem is to admit it (pride). The smarter you are, the harder it is.
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@unknownuser said:
Who had a form of faith, but fell, and never returned, fits into these two possibilities:
- He just had the impression of being āborn againā and had no from where to fall, because he actually trusted in himself, in his merits. He knew something ABOUT God, but did not KNOW HIM, closely, intimateā¦, even if he attended any church for decades.
You presume much in suggesting that someone whom you don't at all know 'trusted in himself, in his merits.' I would presume no such thing. If some day, some tragedy befell you - you lost a child, you suffered abuse from the church, etc. and you turned your back on God it wouldn't change all of the years of your past which were spent trusting in him and knowing him.
@unknownuser said:
- He sinned again, in any way, and believes that there is no more salvation for him, because he does not know how God resolve it...
I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to get at with this second point. I think you said you were from Canada earlier. Are you a native english speaker? Much of your sentence structure is difficult for me to decipher.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
Are you a native english speaker? Much of your sentence structure is difficult for me to decipher.
Sorry, 'Brodie' for my poor english grammar...! English is my 3rd language!
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Mine too. I gave up on my first 2.
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