Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
The Inquisition, the Crusades, the persecution of the Huguenots (St. Bartholomew's Day, anyone?), witch burnings, the atrocities comitted by Joseph Kony and his cronies (though I'm reasonably sure Kony's beliefs are quite different from yours, to put it mildly.), attacks on abortion clinics, the list goes on.
Well, I'll grant you that politics and religion don't mix well and for a stretch of time there, they had quite an incestuous relationship. This is why I, personally, am against the idea of America (or any country really) being called a "Christian Nation." It gives the impression that whatever America does is, by definition, a "Christian" action or at least Christian supported. If we're a Christian nation, then any war is a religious war and Christians feel they must defend it as such.
It also seems clear that there have been some awfully bad Popes who have sanctioned the killing of thousands of people (although it doesn't seem to be a modern phenomena interestingly).
I won't defend these things, indeed I don't know of any Christians who do. However, I'm not sure how these examples 400-1000 years old would constitute as examples that Christianity is, "a system of belief that plagues the world with violence committed in it's name." These are things which happened a long time ago in a very different context which Christians have been denouncing for hundreds of years.
As for the other examples. The witch trials, have also been denounced for some time now and resulted in, I believe, 20 deaths? And then finally the contemporary examples of how religious violence 'plagues' us today. Wiki lists in the US, 6 abortion related murders, a handful of attempted murders, and 14 arsons (resulting in as little as $100 in damage). I don't know much about Kony but he seems to be a bad dude.
Any amount of violence in the name of Christianity is wrong and hypocritical, but does this look like a 'plague' of violence? To me, it's unsurprising that there are a handful of mentally unstable people who get hyped up by the media and politics and go kill an abortion doctor. They're certainly not learning to kill abortion doctors in church. I can't say anything about Kony since I don't know anything about him other than a quick glance at Wiki but we certainly have examples (how far away is Waco, Pete?) where a very charismatic, albeit bat-crap crazy, individual persuades people to follow him in a cult-like way.
@unknownuser said:
There was a certain religious component to the War on Terror as well - as there was to the Holocaust.
I'm not familiar with the argument for the Iraq war being a Christian war? And I'm unconvinced you'd even honestly wish to argue that Hitler was killing jews on account of his religious beliefs.
@unknownuser said:
And what about the oppression of homosexuals?
Oppression, like not believing same-sex marriage should be legal? Oppression seems like a strong word.
All-in-all, I'm not sure it's quite logical to suggest that because a very small number of people (many of whom seem to have serious mental health issues) commit violence, we should thereby seek the end of that religion. I'm not even sure it stands to reason that the level of violence would go down if that religion weren't around any longer. As you, yourself, said, most Christians aren't like this (by an overwhelming number) and indeed, they are typically the first to point out how unChrist-like these actions are - and how as-such, these people shouldn't be called Christians at all, no matter what they call themselves.
And to get spiritual for just a moment - if the Bible is true and Satan is real, would it surprise us that there are people out there committing heinous acts in the name of God which in tern gives God a bad name?
And what we haven't addressed is the very real plague of good which Christians have spread throughout the world. In the name of Christ people go to 3rd world countries bringing HUGE amounts of supplies, digging wells, adopting children, providing free medical and dental care, etc. Here in the St. Louis some of the closest hospitals to me are Missouri Baptist, Barnes Jewish, St. John's Mercy, and St. Luke's. Christians world-wide have not just been 'good people' but, specifically because of Christ's words have sacrificed much of their lives and wealth in favor of helping their neighbor, giving to the needy, taking care of orphans and widows, tending to the sick, etc.
-Brodie
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@alan fraser said:
Actually, the cargo cults do raise a series point about the formation of belief systems. We find them amusing...but only because (as in the case of Prince Philip) we still have the man to compare with the myth. Who's to say that many of the myths in all the great religions didn't start in exactly the same way?
I'm not sure I follow. What would that mean in regards to Christianity for example?
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
Well, I'll grant you that politics and religion don't mix well and for a stretch of time there, they had quite an incestuous relationship. This is why I, personally, am against the idea of America (or any country really) being called a "Christian Nation."
Many do, though. But we're on the same page here. When politics and religion did mix, the result wasn't always pretty. And there you have it: pretty much the only thing I "have against" religion. When Bush was still in power, you'd have him on the one side namedropping Yahweh, and the likes of Bin Laden on the other claiming Allah's blessing. That was rather frigthening.
As long as the two are kept apart, everything's peachy, as far as I'm concerned.
@unknownuser said:
I won't defend these things, indeed I don't know of any Christians who do.
Oh, I'm sure. And I'm not being sarcastic.
@unknownuser said:
However, I'm not sure how these examples 400-1000 years old would constitute as examples that Christianity is, "a system of belief that plagues the world with violence committed in it's name."
Oi! I made no such claim. I merely wanted to point out there were and indeed are -though thankfully less than there used to be- crimes being committed in Jesus' name. I should point out, I believe, I don't primarely blame the Man Himself either. I couldn't, I'm an atheist.
@unknownuser said:
The witch trials, have also been denounced for some time now and resulted in, I believe, 20 deaths?
Interesting. I didn't know that.
@unknownuser said:
And then finally the contemporary examples of how religious violence 'plagues' us today. Wiki lists in the US, 6 abortion related murders, a handful of attempted murders, and 14 arsons (resulting in as little as $100 in damage).
I didn't say "plague". That was Pete. I merely wanted to point out ... er, see above.
@unknownuser said:
I don't know much about Kony but he seems to be a bad dude.
Satan, I believe, is real.
@unknownuser said:
I'm not familiar with the argument for the Iraq war being a Christian war?
I said "War on Terror", and I didn't call it Christian - I said there was a a certain religious component to it.
@unknownuser said:
And I'm unconvinced you'd even honestly wish to argue that Hitler was killing jews on account of his religious beliefs.
That's not what I said either. I meant that the vilification of Jews Rome wallowed in for centuries may have found a willing recipient in the young Adolf H.
@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
And what about the oppression of homosexuals?
Oppression, like not believing same-sex marriage should be legal? Oppression seems like a strong word.
The world's a whole lot bigger than the USA and Western Europe.
@unknownuser said:
All-in-all, I'm not sure it's quite logical to suggest that because a very small number of people (many of whom seem to have serious mental health issues) commit violence, we should thereby seek the end of that religion.
I didn't suggest that. And I wouldn't.
@unknownuser said:
And what we haven't addressed is the very real plague of good which Christians have spread throughout the world. In the name of Christ people go to 3rd world countries bringing HUGE amounts of supplies, digging wells, adopting children, providing free medical and dental care, etc. Here in the St. Louis some of the closest hospitals to me are Missouri Baptist, Barnes Jewish, St. John's Mercy, and St. Luke's. Christians world-wide have not just been 'good people' but, specifically because of Christ's words have sacrificed much of their lives and wealth in favor of helping their neighbor, giving to the needy, taking care of orphans and widows, tending to the sick, etc.
A fair point, of course. And one I'd not dare contradict. I have done free copywriting work for two christian organisations in the past because I felt what they did was recommendable.
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Good points Tom. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have lumped you in with Pete, but I did think that you were attempting to pick up the argument in his stead as he'd not yet responded. At any rate I certainly appreciate your concessions. It makes it so much easier and more satisfying to argue when both sides can concede that the other side has some valid points. Getting down to the true heart of the issue seems much quicker in that case, although it's a frighteningly rare situation (Christians hold much of the blame here I feel making large brush-stroke, slipshod, and unhelpful remarks as we've seen on this very thread - assuming it's not a troll in our midst).
@unknownuser said:
Satan, I believe, is real.
As an atheist, I guess you don't mean that literally. But in what sense do you mean it?
@unknownuser said:
I said "War on Terror", and I didn't call it Christian - I said there was a a certain religious component to it.
Fair enough. Are you simply referring to the Islamic terrorist aspect or are you referring to something on our side. Maybe you could spell it out a bit for me.
@unknownuser said:
That's not what I said either. I meant that the vilification of Jews Rome wallowed in for centuries may have found a willing recipient in the young Adolf H.
Ah, that's certainly a defensible position. If you believe history as it's related in the Bible Rome certainly wasn't the first to vilify the Jews but I'd grant you that they probably played the most significant part of setting the stage for Hitler to take the idea from really bad to bat-crap crazy evil.
@unknownuser said:
The world's a whole lot bigger than the USA and Western Europe.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
-Brodie
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Actually, the cargo cults do raise a serious point about the formation of belief systems. We find them amusing...but only because (as in the case of Prince Philip) we still have the man to compare with the myth. Who's to say that many of the myths in all the great religions didn't start in exactly the same way? Naive islanders or equally naive people millenia ago. None of us has the automatic right to feel intellectually superior.
Whatever the truth, it only explains the theologies. It has nothing to do with the question of whether or not god exists. It's not inconsistent for Hawking to believe in a creator (not saying categorically he does), even if we do solve all the physicality questions regarding the universe.
That's why I don't consider myself an atheist.
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Our god is the best!!!!
Before everyone takes it to serious.
Great Dutch satire on this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7adi7OMaWnA
Bep
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Who is conscious,
chooses the true God,
because only He gives us assurance of salvation,
eternal life,
and changes in our present lives. -
@unknownuser said:
Good points Tom. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have lumped you in with Pete, but I did think that you were attempting to pick up the argument in his stead as he'd not yet responded.
Oh, I was. But only to a certain degree. I don't agree with Pete's conclusion. Though I think I share his fears.
@unknownuser said:
It makes it so much easier and more satisfying to argue when both sides can concede that the other side has some valid points.
Yeah, it does.
@unknownuser said:
Satan, I believe, is real.
@unknownuser said:
As an atheist, I guess you don't mean that literally. But in what sense do you mean it?
I meant that there's incredibily evil people out there. I was specifically thinking of Joseph Kony.
@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
I said "War on Terror", and I didn't call it Christian - I said there was a a certain religious component to it.
Fair enough. Are you simply referring to the Islamic terrorist aspect or are you referring to something on our side.
Both. In the case of the US, it was mainly the rhetorics. 'Crusade', 'evil', 'evildoer' - whilst not uncommon words, they have a certain, well, patina. Seems to me the Bush administration attempted to use the christian identity of the US to make their plans go down easier. I think.
@unknownuser said:
bat-crap crazy evil.
This is just in:
"Pope Benedict XVI denounced gay marriage in his annual “State of the World” address Monday, going so far as to say the same-sex nuptials threaten the future of humanity.
In the speech, the pope, 84, unleashed what some consider being his strongest tirade against gay marriage, saying it is among conventions that “undermine the family” and “threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself,” Reuters reported."
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@unknownuser said:
This is just in:
"Pope Benedict XVI denounced gay marriage in his annual “State of the World” address Monday, going so far as to say the same-sex nuptials threaten the future of humanity.
In the speech, the pope, 84, unleashed what some consider being his strongest tirade against gay marriage, saying it is among conventions that “undermine the family” and “threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself,” Reuters reported."
That's precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. Of all the sins that might end humanity...you pick that? Not hatred, not greed, not pride, envy, oppression...nope, homosexuality, that'll do us all in. At least now we know we won't have to worry about thermal nuclear war clearing us all out, all we have to worry about now is...I guess everyone turning gay and no children being born? That wouldbe a far more disappointing end to humanity, just sort of fizzling out like that.
-Brodie
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Erm, I'm not the one obsessing over homosexuality - it was the guy in the dress.
Wait ... I misunderstood. Right?
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@unknownuser said:
Erm, I'm not the one obsessing over homosexuality - it was the guy in the dress.
Wait ... I misunderstood. Right?
Ya, I was just ranting that this is the sort of thing (within the Christian church - in the broadest sense of the term) which irritates me in that it gives us all a bad name I think. On this point, you atheists are lucky. You have far fewer crazy folks screwing over your own side to contend with.
-Brodie
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Nah, there's plenty of those as well.
Edit: well, I know at least one. A sexuologist whom I once had dinner with. Very, very anti religion, in a rather unpleasant irrational way.
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@unknownuser said:
Nah, there's plenty of those as well.
Oh, you've got your share but I think going by shear numbers I think we both know who'd win in a crazy contest.
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You keep talking on this pointless conversation.
Avoiding answer my comments or some other's ones.
Still egoists all of you, still believing in your personal god.
Nothing weird here. Just predictable.
But when we're talking about God, I really don't care about how your personal god looks like. It's you and You only.
Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here. lol
But remember, we're trying to communicate. We're just human beings, alone, under a vast world.
My experience shows me that some architects and constructors are the most egoists I've met.
The equivalent of the great architect of the universe or something similar.
Good luck to all of us. -
@michaliszissiou said:
You keep talking on this pointless conversation.
Avoiding answer my comments or some other's ones.
Still egoists all of you, still believing in your personal god.
Nothing weird here. Just predictable.
But when we're talking about God, I really don't care about how your personal god looks like. It's you and You only.
Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here. lol
But remember, we're trying to communicate. We're just human beings, alone, under a vast world.
My experience shows me that some architects and constructors are the most egoists I've met.
The equivalent of the great architect of the universe or something similar.
Good luck to all of us.I'm not quite sure who you're talking to or what you're saying.
-Brodie
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Especially Pete, who seems that he's the only true believer here.
..erm, you mean non-believer right?
Actually I may be the most stubborn and the least willing to listen.
In my defense I can also say that I was once a born again Christian openly 'making fishers of men' for many years with a very radical non-denominational bunch called the 'Church of Christ', I also studied the bible for seven years while with them, so I honestly can say I came to my own conclusions and do not make my stances on ignorance.
Was that in Texas as well Pete? As in the ICOC?
-Brodie
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@solo said:
No, Johannesburg, but yes ICOC JHB.
Ah, I'm a member of the ICOC actually. It certainly did screw up a lot of folks back then (not so long ago). The church where I was converted was actually in a pretty good place but I've heard lots of bad stories and experienced some degree of that. Would you say the...rigidity, shall we say, contributed to your becoming an atheist or was it something else?
-Brodie
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@solo said:
In my defense I can also say that I was once a born again Christian openly 'making fishers of men' for many years with a very radical non-denominational bunch called the 'Church of Christ', I also studied the bible for seven years while with them, so I honestly can say I came to my own conclusions and do not make my stances on ignorance.
‘Solo’, something is wrong!
Who was TRULY “born again”, that person can not lose the faith/trust in God, can not lose salvation of God...! It is impossible something like that...! -
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@unknownuser said:
‘Solo’, something is wrong!
Who was TRULY “born again”, that person can not lose the faith/trust in God, can not lose salvation of God...! It is impossible something like that...!Oh... Cornel....
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