Act of God.
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It's not that simple. Here's a better thought out explanation.http://youtu.be/S-BQVmvulmQ
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Agnostism - quite simply means 'you don't know for sure...'
Solo, I'm on your side !
BUT your definitions need redefining.
Atheism IS a belief... just like any 'religion' is a belief.
AND it's also based on an UNprovable proposition, because you can't ever prove a negative beyond a reasonable doubt.
So the atheists', 'God does NOT exist', is NOT provable, no matter how good your logical arguments.
BUT 'God exists' IS provable - even if the logic of the pro-camp IS flawed and they only prove it to their own satisfaction !
SO, please recast the atheists' position as follows:
'The universe exists without God - both for its initial creation and its continuance.'
Then that is 'provable' by argument.
OR perhaps even better, to partially side-step the very existence of God...
'If God exists, then God totally ignores our universe.'
Again provable by logical argument, and avoids the 'existence' argument...
Logically, if God doesn't existence then God couldn't do anything at all [stop!], but that remains an unprovable proposition... But IF you accept that God might exist, it's immediately followed by a denial of any possible influence that God might have, which is far less problematical. All non-believers aren't concerned with the second part, but any believers must then prove that God does interact with the universe... which is far from easy to do.
Recourse to saying that God's word is the Bible [or other holy book] is simply a circular argument that proves nothing. I know of no direct evidence of a real certified God-made intervention otherwise... it's all unprovable personal opinion, hearsay, allegory etc...
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@marian said:
Exactly, it preserves some writings which in the beginning were popular with christians. For example it has a more elaborate and detailed story about the lives of Adam and Eve which most likely was one of the texts abandoned by the christian church.
that's also goes to christian. if they're considered did the same thing to jewish sources.
@marian said:
Probably it is true that it was compiled and edited mostly my Mohammed.
ah, a good statement.
well, that proves you have no knowledge at all about what you are talking about. since Muhammad was indeed illiterate. he wasn't well known for his ability to read or write.
let alone compiling and editing stuffs as comprehensively and integrally structured like that.@marian said:
Also this religion sprung up in the same general geographical area as the previous 2, highly likely and possible that Mohammed made contact with Jews and Christians. It would have been amazing if it had been created in China or Japan in the 6th century. You would have had a serious argument if that were the case.
something must start from somewhere. he never did made intended contact regarding the belief with either jewish or christian. his world were only of those old pagans. he traveled only for trading. the first contact happened when he already have some revelation.
@marian said:
What is that suppose to mean? I have an issue with them and that's one of the major reasons why I also have an issue with the "holy" books that contain and prescribe them.
i see. i accept that as your personal point of view.
well, actually my most concerns personally is about how to make myself do best according the teachings.
for your issue with any "holy scriptures", you can always question each of them. one at a time. and i think, you can always test them including quran if you'd like to. scientifically, empirically, or whatever method you'd like to implement on. for Qur'an, it's still there if you want to test it. i do believe it comes from god. so, i'll let you and qur'an to have whatever inquiries you'd want to have.
as for now, i'll go downstairs for more coffee
cheers.
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'Wo3Dan' wrote:
"[I'm more inclined towards what (for instance) Solo and Rich said earlier, (maybe in the other/parallel thread): Don't do to others what you wouldn't like others to do to you. Live and let live.]"OK but this 'philosophy' is taken from the Bible... See Luke6:31:
"Treat others the same way you want them to treat you."
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Marian wrote: "[No it's not, in the same measure non-Romanians are not a separate ethnic group.]"
How about so-called 'romanian gypsy', aren't they a "separate ethnic group"?!
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And of course .. one of the core problems of all of us = a,non,para(or whatever else)...theists is : "Who/What exactly is the Gd we are talking about?"
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@marian said:
It's not that simple. Here's a better thought out explanation.http://youtu.be/S-BQVmvulmQ
You know, I was living for 14 years in Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and so called "scientific atheism" was part of my school education and ideological indoctrination.
It was (para)religion based on twisted facts, poor reasoning and prejudices. It had its priests, prophets and holy scriptures... and of course the other religions were archenemies.
For me - atheist is someone who BELIEVE in nonexistence of Gd ..
.. on the other hand, this word has really broad palette of meanings ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AtheismI am agnostic. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
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@irwanwr said:
well, that proves you have no knowledge at all about what you are talking about. since Muhammad was indeed illiterate. he wasn't well known for his ability to read or write.
let alone compiling and editing stuffs as comprehensively and integrally structured like that.Oh yeah, I forgot he was illiterate....so that's even better for my case.
I admit I'm not as familiar with the quran as i am with the bible for obvious geographical reasons but it still has many of the same flaws as the bible, at least in general terms.@irwanwr said:
something must start from somewhere. he never did made intended contact regarding the belief with either jewish or christian. his world were only of those old pagans. he traveled only for trading. the first contact happened when he already have some revelation.
He did live in the 6-7th century right? By then Christianity had spread quite a bit so he may have been influenced indirectly even before unintentially meeting Christians and Jews. No man is/was an island even then.
@unknownuser said:
Marian wrote: "[No it's not, in the same measure non-Romanians are not a separate ethnic group.]"
How about so-called 'romanian gypsy', aren't they a "separate ethnic group"?!
You didn't get my argument at all.
For the sake of explaining:Romanians = Christians
Non-Romanians = Atheists
Result?
A very broad term that is not very useful if you wish to understand a group or a person.
Since Non-Romanians would include all the other ethnicities in the world except Romanians it would not be very useful in defining it as an ethnicity. It's the same way with Atheism being considered a religion.Another thing, Gypsies are Gypsies, mixed or not. Romanian gypsies are not a separate ethnical group, it just means the gypsies that live or come from Romania. The same goes for Bulgarian Gypsies, Serbian Gypsies, etc.
@starling75 said:
You know, I was living for 14 years in Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and so called "scientific atheism" was part of my school education and ideological indoctrination.
It was (para)religion based on twisted facts, poor reasoning and prejudices. It had its priests, prophets and holy scriptures... and of course the other religions were archenemies.
For me - atheist is someone who BELIEVE in nonexistence of Gd ..
I understand where you are coming from, maybe better than most here, but you have to understand that what communists proclaimed as atheism wasn't atheism. They in fact made a religion out of worshipping the ruler. It was done in various degrees of lunacy, but that was a religion disguised as atheism. Look up North Korea and you'll get the picture. You can't say that that's an atheistic society.
Also I as an atheist I can tell you that for me belief has little to do with anything. I don't claim to know in absolute terms that some kind of being isn't out here it is just highly unlikely considering the facts. What I do reject and i'm not open to accepting is that the Christian god, Allah, Zeus, Krishna etc exist and govern our destinies.
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Aaargh! This is getting frustrating.
I am not great with words, never had any good writing skills so getting my point across can sometimes be frustrating.
Atheism seems to be defined differently by so many groups and individuals, I really cannot understand what is so complicated in the simple explanation.
Is it because people with faith and belief cannot fathom a person not believing in anything?
Let me try and explain it in a simple way.I do not believe in God, do I need to prove he does not exist before my non belief is justified? I do not believe in the Loch Ness monster either, but does that mean I need to prove it does not exist before my non belief in it is justified? or is the onus of proof with the folks that claim it exists and not me that does not? So instead of being a person that does not believe because there is not enough proof besides some silly stories, a few grainy photo's and a fake looking video I am now called a skeptic...NO! it does not exist end of story, I'm not a skeptic I'm a realist, a skeptic is in doubt very much like an agnostic.
I am an atheist and I do not believe, do not care to believe, do not even want be convinced to believe, unless there is real evidence that I can confirm but that can and will never happen.
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@marian said:
I understand where you are coming from, maybe better than most here, but you have to understand that what communists proclaimed as atheism wasn't atheism.
Of course it was atheism. The hardcore branch
@marian said:
They in fact made a religion out of worshipping the ruler. It was done in various degrees of lunacy, but that was a religion disguised as atheism. Look up North Korea and you'll get the picture. You can't say that that's an atheistic society.
The cults of Josiph Visarionovich, J.B.Tito, Ceauลescu etc were parallel with dogma of "scientific atheism", but these were not identical phenomena.
Eurobarometer poll conducted in 2005
English: This map shows the result of an Eurobarometer poll conducted in 2005. The colors indicated the percentage of people in each country who answered "I believe there is a God" in the interview. The countries marked in grey were not included in the poll. See also Image:Europe-atheism-2005.png for percentage of people who answered "I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force" in the same poll.
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i guess i don't have much of a problem with someone calling me an atheist but at the same time, there is a problem.. the problem is that everyone always feels the need to label someone else (or themselves) with an ist, ian, ic, etc be it religious or political or pretty much anything else.. (well, that and the fact that there never would be an atheist if there weren't a theist in the first place)
all that accomplishes is separation from each other which then leads to fighting each other.. when in reality, what we need to be doing is growing closer to on another.. becoming one with each other.. stopping ourselves from repeating the very issues that lead to all our misery in society(ies)..
(but, i'll admit.. divide & conquer is probably the best tactic to employ if trying to enslave a society)maybe watch the challenge of change if you have an hour + to spare..
mainly the part about our images made on each other.. good or bad images.. and how they will lead to conflict
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@marian said:
He did live in the 6-7th century right? By then Christianity had spread quite a bit so he may have been influenced indirectly even before unintentially meeting Christians and Jews. No man is/was an island even then.
actually yes. that's why i told you that he did met a nashara or masihi (both means follower of Isa/Jesus) elder.
he went to meet the nashara elder who was also his wife's uncle, simply because his wife worried about her husband anxiousness during early time of revelation. she knows that her blind uncle is a nashara and already have memorise the injil (not those ones which written and came later).
he didn't even know that the blind elder was a nashara. who knows and memorise the injil.
he didn't learn anything more than what the elder told him. that he is a prophet, a messenger with revelation. since the old man died not long after.so, that was the first time he knows that there are other people like him with the same burden. the first time that he knows that there were other revelation just like what he got. actually, that was indeed the first time he knows that what he got were "revelation".
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@unknownuser said:
all that accomplishes is separation from each other which then leads to fighting each other.. when in reality, what we need to be doing is growing closer to on another.. becoming one with each other.. stopping ourselves from repeating the very issues that lead to all our misery in society(ies)..
as a theist, Jeff. i'm not really worried for those others who knows and learn what the religion taught them to do or be.
just to let you know, here's a quote that might count for theist about how they should live their life as children of Adam;@unknownuser said:
โ"One does not (considered as a) believer (completely) until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Muttafaqun โalaihi)
if one loves to live well and treated well, one must loves the same things for one's brothers.
the band of brothers
kidding -
@starling75 said:
Of course it was atheism. The hardcore branch
The cults of Josiph Visarionovich, J.B.Tito, Ceauลescu etc were parallel with dogma of "scientific atheism", but these were not identical phenomena.
Eurobarometer poll conducted in 2005
[i]No, it wasn't any kind of real atheism except for the rejection of the old religions and of the supernatural. Replacing the worshiping of a divine being with that of an "ordinary" man is not atheism. Atheism doesn't prescribe the worshiping of anything or anyone. When you have any kind of dogma, scientific or otherwise you have a religion not a lack of it.
What's with the map?
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Of course it was atheism. The hardcore branch
The cults of Josiph Visarionovich, J.B.Tito, Ceauลescu etc were parallel with dogma of "scientific atheism",but these were not identical phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
@unknownuser said:
What's with the map?
It's interesting .. (Romania seems to be very religious country ..)
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I know what the cult of personality is. It's different than atheism, they aren't neccesarily linked.
Author:
David Nicholls
Scientific Atheism is the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods, or the supernatural.By that definition I guess all atheists are scientific atheists. I don't think there is the need for a distinction. I doubt many atheists will say, that they feel there is no god or say that because of their close personal relation with the univers they know that god doesn't exist.
Oh I know how religious my country is
.... It's weird being an open atheist here, but at least there is no real danger of being persecuted or killed. -
'Marian' wrote:
โ[I guess all atheists are scientific atheists. I don't think there is the need for a distinction. I doubt many atheists will say, that they feel there is no god or say that because of their close personal relation with the univers they know that god doesn't exist.]โโMarianโ, you have too many GAPS ...!
The โcruelโ TRUTH is this:
Most famous scientists WERE true Christians!!!
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