Interesting, and probably controversial
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Agnosticism is illogical because nowhere do we say "I don't know" if something exists for which there is no evidence of its existence. If I insist I have two heads do you say you don't know if it exists? Of course not. You know it does not exist because there is no evidence of its existence.
The same applies to supernatural beings. You either have "faith" or not. "I don't know" is a cop out, a fence sitter.
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@krisidious said:
@unknownuser said:
Great one Kris!
Sounds like a good religion...can I join?sounds like you're already a member... and bonus; no one has to try to drown you or cut off your penis to join.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Protestants don't practice infant baptism. For us, baptism is an optional, outward profession of ones salvation. And circumcision isn't "required".
Unless you're a Jew maybe. Otherwise, it is only practiced for hygenic purposes. -
@krisidious said:
If there is a God, who created him/her?
If you believe in a God that created everything in a matter of 6 days, couldn't you also believe that He had no beginning? He is not constrained to "time" as we think of the word. He created time along with the rest of the universe.
Disclosure: This is my opinion.
I don't want to start an argument here. I was just answering your question.. I doubt this will change your or anyone's opinion but I am simply stating what I believe in answer to your question.
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@unknownuser said:
If you believe in a God that created everything in a matter of 6 days, couldn't you also believe that He had no beginning?
If God created the universe and he existed for all time then the universe was not truly the universe, it was just another scale-able name for a pea in a pod... so if God existed before the universe and created it, then who in turn created God? where did he live before the universe? he hung out in infinite blackness twiddling his thumbs for an infinite amount of time before he came up with all this?
Likewise on the Atheists side I'm supposed to believe that everything just popped into existence from nothing? for no reason? it just started being? think of this place before time, before the universe... nothingness... infinite nothing... no matter, no air, no heat, no cold, no gases, nothing... how can something just pop into existence from nothing? and on the first "go" it went so incredibly well as to create this fantastical thing we call the universe? color me dubious...
An Agnostic does not justify a god or question one of any given faith, first he questions the existence of a God at all... so I don't attempt to justify the Christian "6 days theory" my question is of a God of any kind... but by definition God would have created the Universe. regardless of how he might have done it... the question is a basic one. did the universe come from nothing or something. my skeptical and scientific mind reaches the conclusion that nothing has "no beginning or no end". however my only plausible explanation for the universe's state is that it must have always been, like and elastic rubber band contracting and expanding time after time... creating and recreating itself over and over... but then I'm slapped in the face with physics and the laws of the universe and the battle between anti-matter and matter at the beginning. if not for chaos none of this would exist. therefore how can it repeat over and over and always fall with just a little bit more matter than anti-matter. and there I'm left... with no answer...
Solo,
Sometimes there is not enough information to make an informed decision. how can you believe the universe just popped into existence from absolutely nothing? science does not deny that which it cannot prove does not exist. science by definition is "the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding" if you cannot prove it then, it's not science. it's a theory.
Just to make us all feel better I remind you that every single one of us will have the answer eventually... we will die and then we will know... and if we don't? we'll never worry about it again. and in between... we'll have SketchUp.
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@unknownuser said:
I hope you are being sarcastic. Protestants don't practice infant baptism. For us, baptism is an optional, outward profession of ones salvation. And circumcision isn't "required". Unless you're a Jew maybe. Otherwise, it is only practiced for hygenic purposes.
yes, I was trying to be funny...
and for the record I'm both Baptized and ummm... you know the other thing.
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Kris,
Gravity, science or science fiction?
We cannot see it, we have a theory and a law, does it actually exist? Religion never could explain it, well they tried until the earth ended up being round.
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Guys,
The 'old God debate' coming up again! As I write my dog (Jock) is on his chair, half snoozing and not a worry in the world or so it would seem. He would appear to be 'programmed' by Nature to live his life without question or 'deep' thoughts / concerns or worries.
Well, I don't think he questions much, maybe just gets curious now and then about things! Like when he smells by shoes to figure out where I've been walking! I doubt he thinks about an afterlife, its more a case of live for the moment in harmony with Nature. If this is the case, I am jealous!
Einstein got fairly tangled up with the existence of God matter. 'Did Albert Einstein Believe in a Personal God?' http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html makes for an interesting read!
I heard about 'Spinoza's God' some time ago and found Baruch Spinoza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza findings interesting and thought provoking.
I watched with great interest last night, 'Jesus - The Lost Years' on NG. Again very interesting suggestions about what he did between the age of 14 and 30!
I like to keep and open mind and not brand myself as anything. I recently filled in the 'Census of Population of Ireland' forms, had to do so by Law.
When I came to question 12, "What is your religion?', I had a number of options. I could 'tick' 1. Roman Catholic, 2. Church of Ireland, 3. Islam, 4. Presbyterian, 5. Orthodox or 6. Other, write your RELIGION. I was only allowed 20 letters to describe my 'religion'. Not enough space so I filled in twenty ????????????????????
Option '7' was No Religion! But I don't think option 7 should be under the heading 'What is your religion' as 'no religion' is not a religion. Maybe the heading should have been 'What are your opinions / beliefs etc on the existence of an afterlife'
In this case I would 'tick' the 'mind your own business box' if supplied or maybe use the 20x? option.Some nights prior to drifting off to sleep I start thinking about what will happen when I kick the bucket. I am now of the conclusion that death is just a continuous sleep with no dreams. I am happy with that. I think my 12 stone of mass goes back into the cosmos to become part of the overall ... God! .... who knows! ..... no one....... except God ....... if he exists
There is really no point in getting too up tight about an afterlife. I wish Jock could communicate his thoughts or instincts to me. But again, the more I think about it, he does!
Mike
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Great post Mike.
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I heard Pete talk to God at Basecamp. He met him in the toilet at Baker Street Pub.
All I heard was 'Oh God, oh God....not again........hhhuuuuuuurrrrrllll!!!!!!!'
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Really, me hurl? you sure it was me and not Liam?
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The question is, can there be a neutral position of belief or lack of?
If yes, it would be a dismissal of the question.
I don't think "I don't care" counts as neutral. If you are not a theist, does that automatically make you atheist, or is it possible to be neutral?
Agnosticism to me is the purgatory between a decision, I'm going by what I think, I don't believe everything I think.
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And the Dyslexic Agnostic Insomniac sits up all night wondering if there really is a DOG.
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@unknownuser said:
Kris,
Gravity, science or science fiction?
"Gravity"
although invisible it's effects are visible. and can be proven through experiments that conclude with the same answer repeatedly. Science"something from nothing" (Big Bang)
unprovable, thus far... so Theorycan you, in a scientific experiment prove the "something" can come from "nothing"? I'm fairly sure that you'll get a Nobel in Physics if you can create a vacuum of nothingness and then make something, anything pop into existence within it.
p.s. I do not doubt that the big bang happened... I just see no proof it was the first big bang or that it came into being from nothing.
I don't hold religions to their ancestral misconceptions... these people wiped their bums with their hands, I cannot hold them to the errors they made in judgement so long ago with so little information. even if I were to be convinced of a God then I would not likely join any of the organized religions... for the main reason I see it as quite presumptuous that we would be so important to that god that he would be so involved in our lives to the point where any of the religious text would be real.
I mean no offense to anyone... I'm just an ignorant man, questioning his existence and that of the world around him.
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we need a like button on these posts...
@unknownuser said:
And the Dyslexic Agnostic Insomniac sits up all night wondering if there really is a DOG.
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It's good to have these discussion IMO, as long as the ball and not the player is played.
I do respect everyones opinions and beliefs regardless if I agree with them or not.
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Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful as sketchucation could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "sketchucation is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. -
@solo said:
I do respect everyones opinions and beliefs regardless if I agree with them or not.
Thats the simple key that I wish the world could understand and is so we all would be better off!
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..... I asked Jock about things! He just wagged his tail! A good 'answer'! From what I understand about dogs and tail wagging. Dogs do it when they anticipate something!
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Whether religious or non-religious, most people have a sense of right/wrong or good/evil. If you see a terrible event, like Japan's earthquake, you're compelled to help. Maybe donate some cash, help fundraise or pray. Your natural instinct is to act in a moral manner.
This raises the question if through Darwinian evolution we've carried a 'selfish gene'. This gene automatically forces you to survive or prevent your species from disaster. If you were in a situation whereby you could prevent a terrible event from occuring you will do so unless you are immoral. Marc Hauser conducted a series of moral dilemma experiments to determine why we do what we do?
One such dilemma involved a child drowning in a pond with only you to save the child. 97% of the people chose to save the child the remaining 3% didn't want to soil their trousers/skirt?
Now, imagine that God (if he exists) suddenly vanished from earth or belief in God completely disappeared. What would happen? Would mankind automatically become callous/uncharitable/hedonistic? If we no longer lived (or had to live) our life according to the Bible's Ten Commandments would we simply become evil/wrong?
So whether you call yourself mono/poly/atheist/deist/agnostic take solace in the fact that you...
don't cause needless suffering
believe in free speech
don't condone or commit incest...to mention a few.
As long as your life is moral you're a good person
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