The World Hopes for Its First President
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RickW wrote:
@unknownuser said:
No it isn't democratic, because we don't have a democracy
Yet we feel the urge to promote/force Democracy around the world...
Maybe we should take our own advice or stop shoving a system we do not subscribe to down everyone's throats.
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@solo said:
RickW wrote:
@unknownuser said:
No it isn't democratic, because we don't have a democracy
Yet we feel the urge to promote/force Democracy around the world...
Maybe we should take our own advice or stop shoving a system we do not subscribe to down everyone's throats.
Exactly.
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@tomsdesk said:
@rickw said:
@unknownuser said:
America, already said to be on the decline, will look all the smaller for having failed to redeem itself with the election of a young black man with African and South Asian roots and a Middle Eastern middle name.
The article in fact indicated the election of Obama in spite of his race might be credible “tell” of the awakening and enlightenment of “Joe the US Citizen”, thus adding some hope to the mix of the future in the minds of those watching from afar. Electing him because of his race would obviously be seen as more pandering insincerity similar to McCain’s choice of Palin…as indicated later in the article as a big reason for the demise of McCain’s popularity abroad.
I didn't mean to hijack, but there is relevance.
In the referenced paragraph, the author asserts that America needs to redeem itself by electing a "young black man" in this election. This is in no way diminished by the author's having formed it in the inverse (the statement by the author is "if ~p then ~q", which is the inverse of "if p then q"). It's simple logic, far from being "beyond the pale" (unless you intended to say that simple logic is uncommon - in that case, I would totally agree with you). If needed, I can go phrase by phrase to explain things.
As for its relevance to the broader discussion - until France, Germany, Great Britain, etc., elect minorities for their top posts, it's dumb to think we need to be redeemed in the eyes of the world by electing a minority candidate. That is what is so ingratiating about that paragraph, and why it smacks of emotionalism. It's particularly dumb to argue that our vote should be influenced by what the world thinks. I strongly doubt any other nation selects its leader by what the rest of the world thinks, so why should we?
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Rick, in 2004 the world wanted anyone but Bush and we voted that prick back in, hence bucking the world opinion and see how that worked for us? I say the world and majority Americans have got it right this time.
Hope you show dignity in defeat.
We must not forget that most countries have got an invested interest in the USA (see how republican economic crisis has effected the world), hell China and India practically own us. So their opinions DO matter, it's comforting to know that their confidence in us will be on the up from tomorrow.
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I'm following this link tonight: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7700298.stm
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@solo said:
RickW wrote:
@unknownuser said:
No it isn't democratic, because we don't have a democracy
Yet we feel the urge to promote/force Democracy around the world...
Maybe we should take our own advice or stop shoving a system we do not subscribe to down everyone's throats.
Now there's something we agree on. If a nation has a king/queen, maharaja, sultan, czar, parliament, senate, benevolent dictator (highly unlikely, but remotely possible), grand poobah, whatever, that's their business. If they want to peacefully restructure their government, fine (it can be done - we did). We can promote and encourage a system where the people have a voice, but we have no business forcing it.
But then, on the other hand, what responsibility do we (who have the means) have to those who are oppressed (and don't have the means)? Darfur, Bosnia, Sudan, etc., clearly have (or had) problems. To what extent should the US get involved in places where there is a humanitarian crisis rooted in a malevolent government system? The "haves" giving to the "have-nots" is central to Obama's philosophy, so does that extend to international affairs? Of course, those questions are for another thread, as I don't want to be accused of hijacking this one.
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@solo said:
Rick, in 2004 the world wanted anyone but Bush and we voted that prick back in, hence bucking the world opinion and see how that worked for us? I say the world and majority Americans have got it right this time.
Yeah, and we elected a Dem majority to Congress two years ago, and see where that got us. That Congress has an even lower approval rating than Bush. I say the world and the US are wrong to fawn all over Obama. Do I understand the anti-Bush backlash? Sure. I can even sympathize. I think Bush failed in many respects. But I don't buy the lie that McCain is a clone of Bush. Either candidate will bring change. The only question is what kind of change.
@solo said:
Hope you show dignity in defeat.
First off, I won't be defeated, since I'm not running for anything. However, regardless of the outcome, I intend to show more dignity than you've shown with this petty insinuation and your baiting, condescending comments, but you're making it really difficult. All I've done is been critical of the positions of the candidate/party/philosophy you (apparently) happen to prefer.
@solo said:
We must not forget that most countries have got an invested interest in the USA (see how republican economic crisis has effected the world), hell China and India practically own us. So their opinions DO matter, it's comforting to know that their confidence in us will be on the up from tomorrow.
And we have a vested interest in what happens in other countries. Their confidence in us is reflected in the valuation of the dollar, so your concern could be seen as rather self-serving, if taken in the wrong way. Also, your "republican economic crisis" statement is particularly misinformed. Get some facts, not some phony Dem talking points - Barney "FannieMae-is-Fine" Frank isn't all that reliable as a source for assigning blame.
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I would like to add a that my opinions are not related to GSCF, I may be a moderator here but my interest and comments are my own.
I must admit that this election has me totally side tracked and distracted, I am sorry if my responses have come across as baiting or even offensive. My intent is driven by passion for a candidate I truly believe in.
I have been on the other side in 2004 and my "loose with dignity" was a calous remark as I know how it felt having Bush elected again.I hope after all of this we all can carry on as friends and users regardless of our affiliations and beliefs.
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@chango70 said:
@bellwells said:
You completely missed his point. The Newsweek article is saying we need to elect Obama specifically because he's black, not because of his policies. This is liberal guilt, pure and simple.
No it doesn't! What article are you reading? It says that he EMBODIES change which include the fact that he is of mixed origin but that also including change from the existing trajectory US is on.
LOL...what color is the sky in your world?
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@solo said:
...I hope after all of this we all can carry on as friends and users regardless of our affiliations and beliefs.
I have every intent on doing so.
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@bellwells said:
@chango70 said:
@bellwells said:
You completely missed his point. The Newsweek article is saying we need to elect Obama specifically because he's black, not because of his policies. This is liberal guilt, pure and simple.
No it doesn't! What article are you reading? It says that he EMBODIES change which include the fact that he is of mixed origin but that also including change from the existing trajectory US is on.
LOL...what color is the sky in your world?
Not the same as yours obviously.
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Penn. goes blue!
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@rickw said:
...with this petty insinuation and your baiting, condescending comments, but you're making it really difficult...
This would be the pot calling the kettle black IMO.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Propositional fallacies:
Affirming a disjunct: concluded that one logical disjunction must be false because the other disjunct is true.
Affirming the consequent: the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true. Has the form if A, then B; B, therefore A
Denying the antecedent: the consequent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be false because the antecedent is false; if A, then B; not A, therefore not B"I now rest my case and return to my day job," turning as he strolls off stage:
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@solo said:
I must admit that this election has me totally side tracked and distracted, I am sorry if my responses have come across as baiting or even offensive. My intent is driven by passion for a candidate I truly believe in.
I have been on the other side in 2004 and my "loose with dignity" was a calous remark as I know how it felt having Bush elected again.I hope after all of this we all can carry on as friends and users regardless of our affiliations and beliefs.
Ditto that.
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@tomsdesk said:
(...) and my cohorts in these discussions might be appalled) at where I stand on that silly graph line concerning issues like crime/punishment, work-ethic/welfare, citizenship/immigration.
lovingly hammers nails through baseball bat
We all friends again? Btw, youngsters, despite our differences, I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the people here are quite prepared to meet eachother in the middle, when the chips are on the table. Which is good.
Democracy, eh? Throw mud first, compromise later.
Maybe not the best of approaches - but certainly not the worst either. -
Rick, it's all good...and, intended as an act of reconciliation, please let me explain myself further: Sorry, but I find this recurring theme
@rickw said:...it's because you misunderstood something I said...
to be
@rickw said:...petty insinuation...baiting, condescending...
whether justified (or not
). Thus my
@tomsdesk said:This would be the pot calling the kettle black IMO.
(BTW this falls nicely into that "confusion" of mine as well:
@rickw said:So, you're asking for the phrase-by-phrase analysis?
...
)
I do admit, though there probably is no need to do so as obvious as it must be, I am more than a little sensitive about the hyjacking of political discourse using truncated sound bites and dissected partial truths autopsied into grossly inacurate generalizations...especially when classic fallacies of logic and rhetoric are employed. But I meant nothing personal, so if my angst improperly implied such, I do appologize.
As for myself, the only thing said that offended me personally, as opposed to my intellegence
, were the names called: the looney "liberal" because of the man I chose to be best for these times; and the flaming "left-winger" because of how I apply my personal ethic and morals to the couple of issues discussed here lately. My guess is the callers of such would surprised (and my cohorts in these discussions might be appalled) at where I stand on that silly graph line concerning issues like crime/punishment, work-ethic/welfare, citizenship/immigration.Oh well, as I said at the beginning: it's all good!
Though this:
@rickw said:...Ultimate conclusion: the author advocates electing a candidate based on his race so as to bring about "redemption"...
is still an inaccurate conclusion based on the entire article, and unfounded still by your autopsy of the dissected paragraph. IMO -
@tomsdesk said:
@rickw said:
...with this petty insinuation and your baiting, condescending comments, but you're making it really difficult...
This would be the pot calling the kettle black IMO.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've noticed, though, that most of the time you think I'm after you, it's because you misunderstood something I said, rather than me being on the attack.
@tomsdesk said:
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Propositional fallacies:
Affirming a disjunct: concluded that one logical disjunction must be false because the other disjunct is true.
Affirming the consequent: the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true. Has the form if A, then B; B, therefore A
Denying the antecedent: the consequent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be false because the antecedent is false; if A, then B; not A, therefore not B"I now rest my case and return to my day job," turning as he strolls off stage: [attachment=0:18o7p9hz]<!-- ia0 -->nyal1.gif<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment:18o7p9hz]
Okay, first off - I'm well aware that the inverse of a statement is not necessarily true, but you missed the point: I was clarifying the author's claim.
With that out of the way, the author wrote, "America...will look all the smaller for having failed to redeem itself..." Conclusion: the author thinks America needs to be redeemed.
The author wrote, "America...failed to redeem itself with the election of a young black man..." Conclusion: America can redeem itself by electing Obama.
Ultimate conclusion: the author advocates electing a candidate based on his race so as to bring about "redemption".
[EDIT: Just found [url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/obama.history/index.html:18o7p9hz]this article[/url:18o7p9hz] reinforcing the notion that electing Obama is about racial redemption]
Since Obama won, I guess that means that (in the author's view) America is now magically "redeemed", there's no more racism, and we can all join hands and chase rainbows as we listen to feel-good canned speeches from our skilled orator-in-chief-elect about how the government will solve all our problems.
I'm just sad that I missed my opportunity to market Obama-branded diapers - talk about the change we need. And the diapers that need change are filled with campaign promises (regardless of party affiliation).
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@bellwells said:
This is liberal guilt, pure and simple.
Absolutely right. The instant an election ceases to be about qualified leadership and becomes an issue of national "redemption" or the "triumph of a...minority" is the moment we trade logic for emotion, reason for folly. Hence, the article's quoted paragraph is sheer stupidity. Just like the prepared argument should Obama lose, that it must be because America harbors secret racism.
By the way, chango70 he considers himself "black", so that's how I framed things. I guess you must also hate it when he refers to himself that way...
@unknownuser said:
I was trying to raise myself to be a black man in America, and beyond the given of my appearance, no one around me seemed to know exactly what that meant.
Dreams from My Father, p58
There are tons of other references he makes in his book about himself being "black" - so I suggest you not take it so seriously.As for "healing"... well, I doubt it. Those who are racist won't suddenly cease to be, and those who aren't don't need "healing".
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@tomsdesk said:
Rick, it's all good...and, intended as an act of reconciliation, please let me explain myself further: Sorry, but I find this recurring theme
@rickw said:...it's because you misunderstood something I said...
to be
@rickw said:...petty insinuation...baiting, condescending...
whether justified (or not ). Thus my
@tomsdesk said:This would be the pot calling the kettle black IMO.
(BTW this falls nicely into that "confusion" of mine as well:
@rickw said:So, you're asking for the phrase-by-phrase analysis?
...
)Regarding the misunderstandings: I wasn't trying to blame, but there have clearly been some disconnects between what I said and what you replied with. Whether it was not clear in my writing, or it was emotion surrounding the issue, or something else, well, it's all water under the bridge. But since that last quote was so offensive, I removed it. I put it in there as an attempt at lighthearted humor both because your response had nothing to do with arguing my analysis and because "affirming the consequent" (which you highlighted) is the converse, not the inverse, of a statement.
Statement: If A, then B (assumed to be true)
Converse: If B, then A ("affirming the consequent")
Inverse: If not A, then not B ("denying the antecedent")
Contrapositive: If not B, then not A@tomsdesk said:
I do admit, though there probably is no need to do so as obvious as it must be, I am more than a little sensitive about the hyjacking of political discourse using truncated sound bites and dissected partial truths autopsied into grossly inacurate generalizations...especially when classic fallacies of logic and rhetoric are employed. But I meant nothing personal, so if my angst improperly implied such, I do appologize.
One more jab, eh? Fine, but it is a strange "act of reconciliation" to apparently label my expression of a view divergent from yours as "hijacking" and any arguments that trumped yours as "fallacies of logic". I constantly research, reference, and link to articles, not to "sound bites." I also showed how my comment related to the issue at large. You're entitled to your opinion, fallacies and all - but I meant nothing personal, so if it came across that way, I too apologize. You may have the last jab. Or, if we're done with jabs, then by all means explain specifically the fallacy in logic.
@tomsdesk said:
As for myself, the only thing said that offended me personally, as opposed to my intellegence
, were the names called: the looney "liberal" because of the man I chose to be best for these times; and the flaming "left-winger" because of how I apply my personal ethic and morals to the couple of issues discussed here lately.Tom, I don't recall ever calling anyone here any names (though I may have stated my opinion of their actions or statements) - it's just not something I do when discussing issues. If you can point to evidence of me calling you a name, I'll gladly retract and offer my most humble apologies. Or perhaps that wasn't directed at me?
@tomsdesk said:
Though this:
@rickw said:...Ultimate conclusion: the author advocates electing a candidate based on his race so as to bring about "redemption"...
is still an inaccurate conclusion based on the entire article, and unfounded still by your autopsy of the dissected paragraph. IMOI never claimed my analysis was about the whole article, or even based on the whole article, and that appears to be another example of misunderstanding. I've said several times that my critique was about the referenced paragraph, and it's an accurate conclusion regardless of the whole article. I didn't say the whole article advocated electing Obama because of race (though there are hints of that in other parts of the article), just commenting how the author slipped that into a story that was ostensibly about the world's interest in the election. Unless you can manage to show that the author doesn't claim America needs "redemption" which can happen by electing a "young black man", the analysis stands.
Of course, as I said in a previous post, it's all moot now. We're redeemed, and it's all lollipops and rainbows from here on out, since Obama will now solve all our problems for us.
Peace,
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