I believe (part two...

tomsdesk

...ref. this thread: http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=179&t=12160

In an effort to get back on the good track it started off on (thank you Mike and others), to dump the Bible semantics lesson, and give the page number count a break...some more of what I feel/think to start things off again. Hopefully those with comments about similar thoughts will take this opportunity:

I was brought up spending Sunday mornings at Salem Evangelical and Reform Church (lots of singing but no spontaneous shouting at all :`) where my dad went as a kid...far as I knew then, except for sin, religion was mainly just a Sunday thing. Shortly after my Conformation my dad moved us to Eastside Methodist Church...a little because he had proudly just wired its impressive new sanctuary, but mostly so his boys could hang in Sunday School with the rich kids from the east side. (This worked BTW: where I first got it in my head that all kids went to college.)

Shortly after this move...afterall, I was now a teenager... I had lost sight of the Protestant path layed out before me.

I started studying (skimming really) different religions, and by late in high school was convinced I was an All-inclusive Universalist...but by college I had lost my stomach for dogma.

In college I discovered Secular Humanism which lasted awhile...but eventually lost my faith in too many human beings.

Then came a kind of Scientific Spritualism...but I sorta lost interest in science.

Finally found an Egocentric Pragmatism that got me through middle age...but now I don't believe much in the absolutes of "cause and effect".

So at 60+ I find myself at times (sometimes a bit desperately) searching for that elusive Yellow Brick Road...even though I am convinced the Wizard at the end of it is still a charlatan of sorts.

What about you?

ehaflett

And what's so scary about the answer being 'no'?

tomsdesk

Bruce, there is a Peggy Lee song: "Is that all there is?"...I have found it haunting since the first time I heard it. I have become, since escaping the dogmas many years ago, and remain, quite spiritual...so I am convinced the answer to that song title question (which I don't think is about an afterlife...at all!) is: "No".

The answer to your question, and a bit too Juan's assumptions, is: answers and reasons...some understanding!

tomsdesk

Bruce, no...not much, not now at least. I'm of an age not to waste any more of my precious time. But that's not what I believe at this point either...I believe there are still things for me to understand.

And Eric...if you are refering to something "after": not scary at all! I've made my bed, I'm ready to sleep in it :`)

JuanV.Soler

i think that at the end of that golden path you will find what you are
maybe is a matter of no expectations to get to be in calm.
but that is only for Jimmy.
i think that the golden path your are seeking only takes to good things if all the universe we know here can be there as well.
unfortunately that leads up to deal with someone who promises eternal life, somehow keeping, the pleasures and hopes and spirit we can now feel here.
and that leads you to the point of having to deal with that divinity * that comes from the ancestors and that is supposed to be as someone who has create everything and so do must understand his creatures.

so, i have two options : or i become finally a buddist, or , i keep trying to get that divinity * in me
both do for me now, somehow.

goon of doom

So If I can paraphrase. You believe that the wizard of Oz is a fake?
You have rejected everything you have "desperately" tried to believe.
All the time spent on this search is waisted. You may have thought? This bit is good that part is bad. I agree with with that and can not with that. What has it gotten you? Better understanding? Clarity? or just more doubting to include yourself?

Perhaps the words of John Lenin can help. LET IT BE. Know it? Check it out. Relates perfectly to your desperate search.
Its all about you. Remember that your family is the biggest part of you. You are going to be fine in the end just as we all are. How beautiful is that?

GoD

tomsdesk

Goo, a paraphrase needs to relay the same message and intent...oops, you missed completely.

In case you also missed this along your way (quote from Wikipedia): "To illustrate the use of the Socratic method; a series of questions are posed to help a person or group to determine their underlying beliefs and the extent of their knowledge. The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those which lead to contradictions. It was designed to force one to examine one's own beliefs and the validity of such beliefs. In fact, Socrates once said, "I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others."

He also said: "An unexamined life is a life wasted." Please don't waste my time as well.

I am trying here to lure back the like-minded members of this forum whose thoughtful and thought provoking posts have in the past been a delightful diversion and a helpful addition to my thoughts. Please don't stand in the way...but, I guess, if there is that snowball's chance in Hell your question marks are serious inquiries:

Didn't say that.
Didn't say that either.
No. No. Not my thoughts. Yes. Insight to inquire further. Yes. More. No.

Yes, and no...I don't think you correctly apply Lennon's song or its meaning to my quest.
Not in my opinion (nor Lennon's, I believe). Not so much. I agree, but we may well have different definitions of "fine". It's all beautiful, man, just beautiful...and the more I understand the more beautiful it gets.

Goo, a better musical metaphor would have been Bobby McFerrin's "Don't worry, be happy"...a song/mantra (Baba pun intended :`) that has kept me well more than once and sings happily in my head quite often. My quest is not a worry or a bother to me...it is one of many stars I reach for.

You know, Goo, strong individuals see personal honesty as a strength and an open hand as an offer of connection, weak individuals see only weakness and an opening for attack. Sharing a bit of my story was an offer, and my question remains: "What about you?"

tomasz

Tom,
I am 30+ and haven't examined so many paths you have had.
One thing I am sure. We are all spiritual creatures.
Modelhead please don't tell me that my heart( brain,stomach? ) hurts when someone betray me.
It is a spirit within us aching that need to be discovered and developed.
The longer one denies its existence the more time it loses.

There is a question I am asking myself - I know there is a God = Love, it is a matter of my own experience rather then faith, that doesn't want to hide. He want to have a 'supper' with us. I bet he awaits every single one of us to turn to him and 'let him be'.

Tomasz

JuanV.Soler

now modelhead, dont say anymore we are here looking, just because we have eyes, eh ?

tomsdesk

I should also admit, before I turn the floor over completely to you'all, that my long and winding road was a journey not much directed...more a meandering of fluctuating openness and closed-off-edness(?). Most of it was unconscious and certainly not partitioned with street names (those came lately and are mostly only an allegorical device). I'm just recently scrubbing the sleep from my eyes and looking clearly for what there is to see.

goon of doom

Tom
I see that you wish to battle my thoughts on Your struggle to find divinity. I agree with Juan in the sense that lifes most treasured secrets have no words to describe. For example. What does your soul look like? I thank you for attempting to reply to my post in the vernacular that you feel is best suited to get me to begin another mud slinging session. But this topic is really too cut & dry for me to mince words with one who is admittedly not clear of direction. Your own thoughts make my point much better than I could ever hope to. As demonstrated best by your taste in music. If you are comparing a true genius who is clearly touched by the hand of God to Bobby McFarren Sir you are....... yet againWrong.
By the way you should re read your post to me you really do not do your self any service to your intelligence. In short it is in line with your thoughts on this topic line. Senseless, wondering?, and poorly applied. See the edit tab above and try to get it right. Your secret will be safe with me.

As for your question "What about me?" What would you like to know? For me my honesty here is unquestionable unless you can show me otherwise? I freely admit my failings and my reasonings. You really don't get it at all its not all about the attack its about the counterpoint. Dodge, perry, strike.
GoD

JuanV.Soler

the thing about that ...that elusive Yellow Brick Road...is, i think, that we must remember that we are made as whole and that the questions we ask ourselves by the rational way, is inside that whole thing we are.
so even the highest question we can ask is under the whole corporeal frame we are in, and because the desire of living always wins , as the desire of living is the motor of our life itself, that means that the mental approach to things is under it.
So, the answers must be felt. and that take us to be able to understand them without words¡¡¡

JuanV.Soler

those last words are to be written on the book

JuanV.Soler

remember is the one_two_three game we were avoiding, was not it ?
I cant get used to your name , why goon ?, why goon of dom ? why not be yourself in here ?
we are not so bad people Jimmy --- ---
(both ways wink)

goon of doom

@juanv.soler said:

ey goon of doom, GoD, remember is the one_two_three game we were avoiding, was not it ?
cant get used to your name , why goon ?, why goon of dom ? why not be yourself in here ?
we are not so bad people

La llama no es comforteble para ti?
Yo se ingles es no tu palabras premero,
La gama es la gama
En ingles baboso es de este. D-u-m-b Es tu intiendes de este pregunta arriba?
mi preferencia es mehor la llama aqi.
Yo se. nosotros es mi amigos tambien. Me gusta much mis amigos aqui.

JuanV.Soler

well you have put it difficult here for me Jimmy. i give the translation i have obtained from the Free Translation, plus :
Is not the flame comfortable for you?
To speak in english is to not putting your own words at the first.
The scale is the scale
In english driveling it belongs to this one. D-u-m-b Es (it means) do you understand at all the question that is asked above?
My preference is (better) mejor the flame (la llama) aquí (in here).
I know. you are my friends also. I like very much my friends here.

well, i think i have got a lot to learn about the english language yet.
y muchas Gracias , amigo

oh, the heart is feeling better keep the silence
besides its Sunday
ciao

tomsdesk

Juan, you are a better man than I...but I'm trying :`) Thanks for being such a good example!

tomsdesk

@unknownuser said:

There is a question I am asking myself - I know there is a God = Love, it is a matter of my own experience rather then faith, that doesn't want to hide. He want to have a 'supper' with us. Tomasz

Lovely metaphor, Tomasz...sits well with the peace of mind I use to explore these thoughts. I have often thought of God = Life Force: which for me includes both Love/Good and Ill-will/Evil, the cancerous (at the risk of more mockery/i.e.counterpoint from YnW) dark side of this force. Something both within and without of my spirit.

My favorite image of its power and tenacity is the morning glory vine that in just one season covered the railings, grew up the wall, and over the back door of another place I lived...blooming beautifully all the next summer long. It started from a single seed blown by the wind into a crack in the concrete at the edge of my drive. At the time I allowed myself some foolish pride for noticing the out of place single blossom and chosing to avoid running over it...but remain amazed at the perseverance of its LifeForce to bloom before it leafed, and so was noticed.

Alan Fraser

God is Love. Just exactly that. It doesn't say God wants people to love, or God indulges in love Himself or God is represented by love. It says God IS Love....one and the same thing. When you love, you manifest a little bit more of God.

tomsdesk

Alan...wow!

And love is...?

(Not being facetious at all, I'm really interesting in hearing more. Is love only internal: feeling loved and/or loving? Or is it an external thing transferable? What constitutes love that can manifest? Is God only internal, or external as well? More please!)