I Believe (to address the complaints of last week)
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Shaun (good to see you, bud :`), I was surprised to see your dictionary's definition so heavy on truth...I always had it in my head as more about method: which I confirmed everywhere I looked this evening. (My Oxford American didn't use the word truth at all for any of the words with science as a root. The site below did quote the Webster's New Collegiate did use the word ("knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world") but this certainly doesn't say science is truth.
Have a look here, "kids" science site, best I found: http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html Here's part of the definition there, which fits what I was taught and thought science was:
"What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it."
So it's just a method of study...what's not to believe in?
Yes, some things have been proven by science...often called truths (and some "truths" have been disproven by more advanced science). I was taught this in grade school science class...aren't all kids? There are scientific theories, still under investigation, that have been partially proven. This taught also in grade school...what's the buzz?
I think it is the same buzz started by fearful Muslim clerics in the 14th century, who before then were at the fore-front of the world's scientific investigation and discovery. I certainly don't argue science over God, but I just can't under the premise of arguing God over science...apples and oranges (or whatever simile doesn't offend :`) The creation is here, how does the study of it have any bearing on how it was created?
Oh wait...is it about that story in that Book?
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Tom and Mike, it looks like it's just a matter of perspective on those points:
Mike - at this point, we are looking at philosophy, and we have different perspectives based on our experiences and choices. An interesting note (without being acerbic - I respect you Mike, so please don't take this as insulting) is that you end your post with a statement that you'd rather not push any certain beliefs, but the post itself derides the possibility that a God might exist, and that He may have revealed something to us.Tom, good to be around - but I don't know what the next little bit holds - I'm vacationing in the next bit and will likely be away from the 'net. Again with the perspective, we don't carry that much of a different definition, and I am not saying that I'd gladly throw the truth away. What I am saying is that I question that which is foisted as truth, when that may actually be debatable. This part of the definition that you mentioned sticks out to me "Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena." I like knowing that an understanding comes out of observation and experimentation. I don't like when theory is borne of conjecture.
Much has been "truth" in the past, and has now become fiction in the present. History repeats and I fully expect that our time is not immune from looking silly in our "knowledge" as any other time in history - I would just rather be skeptical than easily accepting when it comes to what I'm being asked to accept. (I'm fully aware of how funny this may sound to many of you!)
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Not trying to insult anyone here, but it isn't religion quite heavy on the conjecture? (Morning, y'all!)
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I think part of the problem that causes the Religion/Science schism is that most people...when they think of science...think of the likes of the old Newtonian physics with its mathematical certainties; certainties in which there are just the numbers and no room for anything like God.
Well, Newtonian physics is "good enough" when dealing with big stuff like bridges, buildings, automobiles or even us, but it's not the way the Universe actually operates. To understand how things actually work on the deepest level, you need to switch to Quantum mechanics...and quantum theory is shot through with uncertainty and probability; they are at its vey core.
Probability Theory, the Uncertainty Principle and Entanglement are all seriously weird concepts that are very difficult to get your head around.
Again, most casual readers would assume this means that we cannot be certain of the state of a sub-atomic particle, for intance, because we can't measure it accurately enough. This is a misunderstanding. The truth is that the particle itself is uncertain of where it's at. It doesn't exist at a fixed point, it potentially exists within a probablity cloud...in many different places simultaneously, only finally making up its mind at the last moment, if at all. There really are multiple universes and alternate realities....really.This isn't just scientists playing mind games which have no impact on the world as we know it, if this stuff was just an intellectual exercise and not the way things really are, then very real things wouldn't happen....a transistor wouldn't work; the sun wouldn't shine.
The Universe...reality...really is both stranger than we imagine and stranger that we can imagine. There really is so much we don't know yet that there is a massive amount of room to accomodate all manner of metaphysics. In a way, believing that science has bulldozed God out of the equation is as closed-minded as believing that the Bible is literal truth.
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yes, we are a never_ending learners, so it seems.
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Amen, brother!
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"The Universe really is both stranger than we imagine and stranger that we can imagine. There really is so much we don't know yet that there is a massive amount of room to accomodate all manner of metaphysics."
And science seems to be getting harder and harder -- it takes real effort now even to get a small understanding of what's going on at the frontiers, let alone special relativity (which I almost understood for a little while after much effort).
A good read: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn -- written back in the 60's but a real revelation.
Can't wait to hear what happens when they fire up the CERN Large Hadron Accelerator later this year. Could really screw up current cosmology theory.
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@mike lucey said:
.... why should God be male (Him)? Surely God could be female (Her) just
as easily? Why would God be anything like us? Surely a God capable of
Creation would be NOTHING like us?and who tells you that God:))) is male ?
and who tells you that God:))) does really want to be anything like us ????????????......but we are SOMETHING....................................
and how about if he did had told us before
))))
how about that? Mike
how about it ?modelhead, why do you carry on in being a mouse ?
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@unknownuser said:
The only viable religion IMHO would embrace a mouse as having a life that is just as important as mine.
I agree. A god that doesn't love all living things equally, is no better than we are.
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@juanv.soler said:
well a mouse is not able to draw and change knowledge as we do, no ?
Juan, no. The mouse is quite capable within the limits of its brain power...just as we have the limits of ours. (And yes, I've seen a mouse dream :`)
@unknownuser said:
By the way can anyone name a faith/idiology/religion that will allow a mouse as equal??
Bruce, excluding the religions of the Book...don't most?
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you are all feeling
well a mouse is not able to draw and change knowledge as we do, no ?
is a mouse
so we have more to answer to the one who created us
i dont think we will be judged by the same lines
or do you ?:)))
no:)
in any case i think it_is much better than being an idiotical_mousely_faced crew or whatever thing just to make it_it up to be another religion
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i think i understand your point of view modelhead,
i will have to learn that maybe -
Well, I'm far from...knowledgeable even, but any of the Eastern religions that believe in reincarnation come to mind (sure there is a hierarchy of life but a soul is a soul). Then the spirit beliefs of Native Americans and Aboriginal societies south of the equator...?
It is my understanding the Book was the first elevate man (or lower God :`) to the status of God's special creation.
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my name is JuanV
)
cheers -
I prefer to chat with you
good night -
What this thread is lacking is some scripture from Cornel. If he posts some here it should make all your points and counterpoints moot.
GoD -
My understanding of your Gpd is that He is alive except that he doesn't still give prophecy for his church like he always has in the passed through prophets. He is alive but chooses to not communicate. His Bible is the ultmiate and only word, except that there are so many versions out there you can interperet it to read however you want, even changing fundamental truths about who He is and what His nature is.
What if God was still speaking to prophets, wouldn't that be interesting? Or if there was more scripture left for us from His prophets, shouldn't find that?
Chris
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Dear friends,
Iām not a fanatic guy but there arise inherent controversial discussions because my God is different than yours!
Mine is alive, is true, and His unchangeable Word is The Bible.
āAll Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;
that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.ā (2Tim. 3:16-17)Mine is not my creation, not my invention or my imagination! Iām part of His creation.
My God has some attributes, such as omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience, and, because of that, He declared:
āFor as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.ā (Isaiah 55:9)My God desire that all menkind to be saved:
āFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.ā (John 3:16)Jesus Christ, His Son, finished that rescueā¦!
Now,
āā¦ to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name;
Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]ā
(John 1:12-13)āCrystal clearā, isnāt it?!
Cornel
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God communicates w/ us in various modalities...
The Bible , written Word of God, wonāt be extended, because It is complete.
It is much more greater than our necessities!Cornel
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Cornel, which is your point of view about the CorƔn ?
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