Capital punishment

[kwistenbiebel]

Honestly,

Some of the answers here in this thread are just too shocking for me.
Seriously, I need to keep it closed, as I want to keep believing we have nice and peaceful people here.
I really get a bad feeling when browsing this thread, and it is miles away from anything I find important in life.

[Jackson]

Wow, surprise surprise, this topic managed to get everyone riled up.

Next week: Abortion? Good or bad?

[Ross Macintosh]

@kwistenbiebel said:

I want to keep believing we have nice and peaceful people here.

I tell people I live a 'sheltered life'. Living on a predominantly rural island with a low population in a relatively safe country, I do feel quite sheltered from violence.

When I think of how people here would react to stumbling on an intruder in their home, the first thing that comes to mind is they would ask the intruder "Hi, can I help you?". They would try to talk the person into leaving peacefully -- and chances are the intruder would leave with a wave. Of course some folks would blow up but I really think they would be a minority.

On American tv shows we often see the stereotypical rural 'pa' reaching for his gun to go out to 'greet' the stranger seen coming up the driveway. I hope that doesn't really happen. It certainly doesn't happen here - where 'pa' would be more likely to go out and find out the life story of the stranger, offer a cold drink, and any help the person might need.

[goon of doom]

Most all of us here have been a victim of a crime of one sort or other. Robbery, the home intrusion is a crime of violence can also be a sex crime that if a opportunity presents leads to something even more hideous. My feeling is that most petty burglers are habitual ones. Drug addicts hooked on the yam yam. While I have never seen one in the act I think that my tactic would be to be a good witness first. If my family were in the home we have a phraise "Go see grampa Chuck" AKA bad guy run.

Would I pull the tough guy card from the get go? No.
Would I be sizing him up and searching for angles and weighing my odds. Yes
Would I make verbal contact? NO You say much more in some cases by saying nothing.
If I were in combat with him and controlling him would I beat him to a pulp? That would make me the same as him. Violent. I hope not.

Now if I were locked in mortal combat with a crazed freak who was not going to quit. Then yes I think I know enough about myself to know that I would Not stop until one of us could not continue.

But adrenalin is definatly a good high. Lets hope that we never have to turn the glad for that purpose. Save it for the good times. Unless your idea of a good time is a kicking A**. Modelhead

GoD

[basic.woodworks]

Though very passionate in m beliefs, I am, and have been described as a gentle man. I have been throughout Canada, US and most of the northern South-American continent in my my youth. I have been in situations and lived through and survived things I would not wish on my worst enemy (not that I have any) no.. no surviving enemies at all.. just kidding Seriously though, as much as we all would like to think we know how we would react in any given situation, I know from some experience that what we actually do can differ from our "would do" by leaps and bond.

I am a peaceful man (6'3" and ~250lbs). But I am a believer that in a potential hazardous position you first pull out the iron fist, then the velvet glove. In one incident, I found a young man breaking into my work truck. I yanked him out and slammed his head into the side of the box and roughed him up a bit. An hour later, I was buying him a meal at a nearby greasy spoon while waiting for the Mounties to show up. He waited with me, knowing they e=were coming. We talked for a while. I even waited for him after giving my statement and drove him home (if one could call it that). He ended up working off the damage he did to my truck and stayed on for about eight months, until he decide o go home to Ontario. To this day, to my knowledge, he's stayed out of trouble. But I do know that he is the exception to the rule.

I have to protect what is mine and my family because it's my primary "job" and because no one else will. The velvet glove comes out, afterward, in case there's a chance the "offender" can be rehabilitated. But we now live in an age where people get shot in broad day light just to serve an initiation for gang-bangers. We have to do what we must.

Again.. my opinion

Mike RL

By the way, Jackson. I had a good chuckle at your smart*** post.

[Mr S]

@solo said:

There are plenty convincing reasons against the use of capital Punishment:

1. Denial of basic right - According to Humans Right Association capital punishment overrules our most basic human right - the right to life. Human life has fundamental value. The blessedness of human life is denied by the death penalty. Live is precious.

2. The possibility of error – Later investigations revealed many convicted individuals innocent which got death penalty in the past, and have been pardoned. Recent DNA investigation studies have shown the same thing.

3. Unfair Judgment - Generally, it is observed that Capital punishment is inflicted unduly on the poor and minorities. If you follow the data of these victims, you will find that the mentally ill, poor and people belonging to minorities form a large chunk of the total number. You can also notice a kind of racial discrimination this happens due to varied reasons. Because the poor can offer very low compensation the defense lawyers are often incompetent, resulting in losing the case. Due to prejudice and bias, poor people, and people from minority sections become soft target for such capital punishments, as unrestricted discretion has offered to District attorney. If any one wants to appeal then it becomes a burdensome process for him often resulting in denial of justice.

4. Lack of Deterrence - The purpose of any punishment should be deterrence from repeating the same act. But, according to the statistics available, the death penalty has not been effective in controlling the homicide rate. The studies have revealed the shocking truth that executions actually increase the murder rate. That means the capital punishment does not deter violent crime. According to a New York Times study, the last 20 years witnessed 48% homicide rate in states with the implementation of capital punishment compared to 23% in the states without capital punishment.

5. The prolonged uncertainty – The validity to the deterrence argument is annulled by the delays, endless appeals, retrials, and technicalities that keep persons predestined to capital punishment waiting for execution for years. In fact, we are not competent enough to carry out execution. This uncertainty and incompetence offers another great injustice. It is itself cruel and a form of torture.

6. Justifying circumstances - Sometimes, persons suffering from emotional trauma, abandonment, violence, neglect or destructive social environment commit such heinous crimes. These mitigating situations can have devastating effect on their humanity. So, it is unfair to hold them fully responsible for their crimes. It is our communal responsibility to show some sympathy to some extent.

7. By giving capital punishment, the family of the victim is permanently traumatized and victimized. They are often punished by their loved ones without their fault, even though they are innocent.

8. Effects on society – Capital Punishment is itself a premeditated murder. This is unacceptable even it is inflicted by state authority as it lowers the value of life. In fact, such act can only brutalize the society. "Revenge is essential" can become a society attitude. By witnessing such acts, our own mental makeup starts believing that violence is necessary to curb the wrongdoings.

In conclusion, capital punishment is a moral dishonor. The mockery is that the very civilizations that have no right to impose it, are in particular leading the traditions of capital punishments.

The economic malfunctions and cultural diseases in those very societies contribute to the violence. So, instead of inflicting Capital punishment, it’s our duty to provide opportunities for all people to accomplish a good life in a rational culture.

As Most Rev. David B. Thompson, Bishop of Charleston, S.C. said, "Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge. It brutalizes us, and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life."

Jayashree Pakhare

This is getting to be a long debate and as usual it seems that we all have our own fixed views on these big issues.
But I can't help making just a few quick responses to this post.

1. What about the right to life of the victim?

2. As mentioned in my previous post we already agree to many things that involve the possible loss of innocent life.
   Why adopt a different position with regard to capital punishment. I am always amazed at the mental somersaults that liberal thinking can indulge in. They don't like capital punishment because of the possible loss of innocent life, but ask them if we were right to go to war with Nazi Germany and they respond with "of course, it was for the greater good". So they can come to terms with the loss of innocent lives when it suits them.

3. If your referring to the poor in Western civilisations then poor is difficult to define. There is practically no circumstances where people here have to kill just to survive. If I only own a Ford Focus, am I deprived (poorer) because you own a Mercedes? If so, does this provide a "reason" for me shooting you and stealing your car? Is the unfairness of the capitalist system the cause of my actions or my greed? Is it all society's fault or my own?
   According to government statistics people from minority sections are responsible for more murders than is proportionate to their numbers. More murderers come from these groups and that's why a disproportionate amount of them face the death sentence in the US. Why? That is an entire debate in itself.

4. Well, I know I have used "according to the statistics" myself, but we all know they can be made to "prove" anything. However, on this particular point I would suggest that due to the long legal games that are played out that prevent executions taking place the deterrent value of capital punishment has been nullified. Most criminals simply don't believe it will happen to them because if you play the game right you can avoid it. So even if states have capital punishment available to them everyone knows its unlikely to be used. That's why its no deterrent.

5. This point shows only how the legal profession needs a massive overhaul. This is a completely separate issue.

6. This simply lists the many various circumstances under which people may kill. For these the charges of manslaughter or diminished responsibility (or the American equivalent) are available . No one suggests the death penalty be imposed under these circumstances.

7. Sorry, this point made no sense to me.

8. I disagree. Capital Punishment does the exact opposite of lowering the value of life. It confirms that the taking of innocent human life is the ultimate crime and those guilty of it will pay the ultimate price with their own life. What brutalizes society is seeing the perpetrators of these acts escaping justice. Justice not revenge, that is all most people want. Our own mental makeup should tell us that violence should always be the last resort. But sometimes it has to be resorted to. All the history of mankind shows this to be true. Pretending otherwise is to live in la-la land.

"
@unknownuser said:

The economic malfunctions and cultural diseases in those very societies contribute to the violence. So, instead of inflicting Capital punishment, it’s our duty to provide opportunities for all people to accomplish a good life in a rational culture.
"

This assumes crime is all societies fault. Millions of people who are economically deprived lead good honest lives without ever hurting anyone. Many who have had a "privileged" upbringing have committed terrible acts.
People commit murder in socialist and capitalist societies. Most of them can find many reasons about why they themselves are not responsible for their acts. It is always someone else's fault. It is individuals who commit these acts and they should be held responsible for their actions.

@unknownuser said:

As Most Rev. David B. Thompson, Bishop of Charleston, S.C. said, "Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge. It brutalizes us, and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life."

It is a complete waste of time quoting a religious source. You can always find one that supports your own argument.
But as I am an atheist I have no interest in what any of them have to say.

Regards
Mr S

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child."
Cicero

[PeterCharles]

I remember Ruth Ellis being hanged.
I remember Sydney Silverman's bill being passed in the UK.
I remember it replaced hanging with life imprisonment for murder.
I remember that life imprisonment was be be just that LIFE.

But now, seven years then release?
Life should mean life, die in prison, no further contact with the outside world.

[basic.woodworks]

Many times I have heard "religion and politics don't mix".

Religion and politics mixed, what a terrifying thought. In retrospect, this is what we have here. The subject of capital punishment is pretty much governed by the two. On one hand the strong religious voice of the New Testament part of the Bible, and on the other, the law, based on that same voice. Although it has been amended, lord knows how much and how often, over the years.

I've also heard "lock on door only keep the honest people out".

Given the opportunity, a dishonest many will take a $20.00 for the counter at a restaurant, if no one is watching, yet he won't open the till. A little over a century ago, we hung cattle rustlers and horse thieves on a regular basis. The argument could be that this law was ridiculous as we still had a lot of rustlers and horse thieves around and it did not deter them. I think what we should be considering is not how many people we hung but how many we did not because of the fear of the punishment. Will there always be murders, rapists and pedophiles?? It's probably safe to say yes. Would there be a considerate amount less of it? Almost certainly yes. Whether it's due to media or society in general or our own upbringing, a lot of us have been almost desensitized to the act of killing someone. How many people still look to hire someone to kill their spouse, business partner or whoever else. If the sentence was death instead of 10 to 15 for conspiring, how many of those would think of it, sure, but abandon the idea out of fear.

May be the oldest saying in the wold: "Putting the fear of God into him". Implying the "hell" card. If you .. blah-blah, you're going to hell and therefore putting the fear of the wrath of God. Why not put the fear of the law into people's minds. The wrath of the justice system. Fear of consequences. A young man I know, in retribution, went to another young man's house, rang the door bell, waited for the other to nearly open the door. He then kick the door and knocked the other back, sprayed him in the face with mace, to blind and incapacitate him, the hacked and slash him with a blooming meat cleaver. He waited for the other to get his bearing, somewhat, and told him "I told you I'd get you back". He then walked away and left him for dead. When he was found, within an hour later, he was nearly dead, with his gut literally spilling out onto the floor.

To guarantee a quick conviction, they reduced the charge from attempted murder to aggravated assault. !4 months later, I saw him at a Tim Hortons doughnut shop having coffee with his buddies. Oh yeah, he got the other young man because he had told a couple of other guys where he could be found, not realizing that the reason they were looking for him was because he'd stolen a lot of money from them.

So tall me .. is the justice system really working? Knowing that most "career" criminals escalate, the end prize really should be harsh. Never mind God, as few even believe, we have to put th fear of the law into them.

My long winded opinion.

Mike RL

[tomsdesk]

My first night out downtown, when stationed in Thailand, I was surrounded by a dozen or more 5-7 year old boys...all hands on, all over me, hollering: "Gimme Baht, gimme Baht!" Since I had been warned about this at orientation (and because I hadn't yet that night succumbed to the demon rum :`) I quickly jambed my hand into my wallet pocket and held on for dear life: swinging my body left and right to shake off the kids as I ran to get free. I lost my watch, but saved my wallet (money was not the issue...losing my military ID would have cost me an Article 15).

The next week (this time a sheet or two to the breeze) I was looking over a street vendor's watch choices (I needed one afterall) and spotted mine. Of course I started making a rather loud big deal about this, and as my longer time in country buddy pulled me away, hushing me sternly, I noticed the look on the vender's face (I have never forgotten that look...which probably saved my life a couple of times during my pool playing days): there was some fear, yes, but mostly it was hard, determined, and awfully cold.

My buddy explained I could get stabbed over that $15 dollar Timex because his having it could get him 5 years in jail. I didn't fully understand until months later when I stumbled on the local Thai jail: 5'x5' cages, 4' tall, stacked 3 high.

Since then I haven't been able to swallow the deterrent argument except for white collar crime. I also believe our whole criminal justice system is mostly a failure, so of course application of capital punishment is poop too. That said:

I like dogs, they are interesting creatures with many traits I respect and/or admire...but:

Rabid and feral dogs need to be put down fast.
Vicious dogs who have attacked others (tasted blood) need to be put down without question.
Aggressive dogs, who have threatened others, need to be restrained and retrained...but if they don't respond quickly: put down as well.
Some breeds of dogs need close supervision and watchful concern until the viciousness and aggression is breed back out of them...and if they turn, they too will need to be put down.

I also like humans, they are interesting creatures with many traits I respect and/or admire...but:

...

[bubbalove]

A good friend of mine was murdered when I was a senior in high school. He was killed with a baseball bat with a shot to the head... all because he didn't have drugs these punks were looking for! Forgive me... but he was only sentenced to 5 years in prison! Put yourself in my shoes for one minute...

[basic.woodworks]

I give you props, Tom. Funny, honest, to the point (the last part at least) and true.

Mike RL

[Ross Macintosh]

The vast majority of us likely live our lives in peace and security. While violent crime is relatively rare it has a 'terrorizing' effect that makes people fearful beyond the real risks. TV news and watercooler talk tell us scary stories that make us think it happens much more frequently than it does. Many of us would simply live happier lives if we stopped watching the news.

I remember hearing some statistics about young offenders. From the stories they hear, the public here in Canada assume young offenders are abusing the system left, right and center. If I asked almost any one here the following question: "Of the young offenders who appear before a Judge what percentage do you think will end up reappearing before a Judge?" I think most people asked would guess something like 95%. The real answer is something under 5% get in trouble with the law again. So why 95%? It seems the justice system does not disseminate its successes and is condemned by its failures - even if they are relatively rare. The media are only interested in the sensational stuff and only tell us what they think we want to hear. The media is not objective. They rarely tell us stories about the offenders who got their lives together as that isn't newsworthy.

My point is it is very difficult to be fully objective when considering a subject like Capital Punishment. Perceptions of violent crime typically are exaggerations and our fears unsubstantiated. People will support Capital Punishment saying "because of the deterrent factor" even when studies have shown there is almost no deterrent effect. They will support the government killing a fellow citizen, basing their support on erroneous justifications and gut reactions like 'an eye for an eye'. That is scary.

Regards, Ross

[Stinkie]

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.

[basic.woodworks]

I was a "young offender", small stuff mostly, and if it weren't for my willingness to change and the help, a stranger from the other side of the country who took me in and the Quebec government's willingness to let someone else deal with the problem, i.e. me, I could easily be in a whole other place today. As a young adult, I was ask to return to tat man's farm to help with a youth program or "lost causes". Though this was ~20 years~ ago, our success rate was about 80%. Meaning that 8 out of 10 youths got their act together and never appear before a judge again, at least in the 3 years I worked there as a counselor. This was unheard of. At the time, the stats in the province were the opposite, where as 8 out of 10 would land back in court and in jail.

I know this was years ago but in the same token, our jails are overcrowded. New ones are built every year. A lot of cases that end up in court involving youth are over petty little things like shop lifting, driving infractions, and vandalism (example: setting off a fire extinguisher or pulling a fire alarm). In the majority of case, it goes to court, gets recorded in the stats as youth offense, and the kid, who really wasn't a bad kid, just not very bright, ends up with a warning, probation and restitution (if the case requires). Of the ones that commit a serious offense which warrants a jail term, between 60 and 80 per cent of those will reappear in court and go back to jail. This was told to me by a parole officer about a year or so ago.

So yes, in ALL the kids who go to court may 80% don't reappear but probably 80% of that group are kids who lacked judgment and did something stupid, not criminal. The 20% however will reappear, and half of those throughout adulthood.

I know we would all like to think that we live in a better place than we do and that the things we hear about only happen in other places, not hear and not that serious, but I must disagree with me learned forum acquaintance, we only hear of about 1 to 5 percent of what's really going on. No city wants the world to know how much violence really occurs in their streets. No country want the world to know that it may not be safe to come and visit. In turn, the media only reports the most heinous and violent crimes, unless it's a really slow news day. My son, to my shame, has attacked and left someone to die. In my books, he should be in jail for no less then 7 years, but more appropriately 10-12. Whether the victims of such crimes survive or not, should hold no bearing on the sentence; as the intent was there.

For year the Province of Alberta denied having any gang chapters within it's border. Yet I personally know, through association, the man who was the Alberta Hell's Angels Chapter for years and he's lived in Alberta his whole life.

The city of Edmonton denied having gangs for years until one day, out of the blue, they held a press conference announcing the formation of an anti-gang task force. And of course, << we have no more gang trouble >> was soon to follow. Ironically, the day after a formal announcement of success, a man was stabbed to death at an LRT station (public rail transit system) by members of a local gang, so reported the local newspapers. Needless to say, they never said that again. Nearly every week-end, last summer, there were between 2 and 6 stabbings on Whyte Ave alone (where most nightclub are) but they don't report it all the time because it become old news and frighten the locals which is harmful for the economy and public image of the city. And for the record, this is but one city. How many cities in THIS country have the same issue?? How about in the continent??

We need to get our heads out of the sand and at least acknowledge the fact that we have a problem. To say that it's all media hype is ludicrous. How often do you hear of car-jacking? Know anyone it's happened to? In North America, if you average it out and spaced it out over 24 hrs, there is a car jacking occurring every 2 minutes.

Mike RL

[Ross Macintosh]

@basic.woodworks said:

How often do you hear of car-jacking? Know anyone it's happened to?

I have never heard of a car-jacking in my region. (I've heard of them happening in Florida and LA but never anywhere else). I don't know anyone who its happened to.

Heck, I don't know anyone who has been in any kind of violent assault other than I guy I know who lived in New York and a guy who was shot in the crossfire of a bank-robbery -- but that was in Bogota. Of course I know there are bad people out there. I just don't think they are lurking around every corner as the media seems to have some people believing.

Regards, Ross

PS - Mike, sorry your son got himself into so much trouble. I hope his victim is doing okay.

[basic.woodworks]

thanks for the thought, I hope so too. Last I heard he was on the mend but mentally... who knows. This is one of those things that can cripple him for life as easy as it can make him a stronger better man.

I grew up hard. I always swore that i'd never let that happen to my kids but you can help who they get mixed up with and what they get into. Maybe I was too strict? who knows. But even so.. Having seen the things I've seen and put through enough to fill 4 lifetimes, I still believe in capital punishment. It has it's place. Even God, if you believe in it, send should to eternal damnation. We just make sure they get there sooner rather then later.

It is nice to know, though, that there are some people who've not been touched by violence or victimized in anyway. with all due respect, I'd have to say that it's like sitting o the side lines and questioning the ref's decision.

Regards

Mike RL

[tomsdesk]

It is nice to know that there are people who've not been touched by violence or victimized in anyway.

I too have been pretty lucky all my life: only had my vehicles broken into a couple of times...and I caught a guy cutting the screen of an open window in the middle of the night once (the one time I was glad for my 3am trip to the head) but he ran off like the cats when I went cuss-stomping into the living room (thank God!). We did have a dinner party at a new apartment in KC that ended with all my guests cars (3 of them) without wheels...so we just moved the next week to burbs (so much for my "inner-city" phase :`)

Anyway, just last week (admittedly, this is more like a normal month's worth...but 'tis the season) in my hometown of Wichita (pop. 280k, sleepy and safe in the middle of Kansas):

A 19 year old girl was shot dead by one of her neighbors over a parking space on the street in front of her house.

A woman was convicted for stabbing another woman to death in a QuikTrip over a hotdog argument at the microwave (we were blessed with the store video on TV over and over...she went out to her car, came back with a big butcher knife, and gutted the victim, another nasty piece of work, while her boyfriend held off the victim's boyfriend: the best part was watching the other customers stepping over the body with their soft drinks but without saying a word until the cashier finally noticed and stopped ringing people up).

As is the perverted custom these days, the victim's grandmother was interviewed about the conviction for the evening news and mentioned she was glad justice was done. The lead story the next evening was about the number of drive-by bullets they dug out of the 80-something's house...this time she refused to talk to the reporter.

There were also a couple more murders, another stabbing to death, and 3 more drive-by. All this stuff was known to be gang related so wasn't gagged since a few years back Wichita too decided to get tough on gangs: press means money for programs...no one hears much about the day-to-day crime: that's bad for business here too.

There is indeed a large feral element breeding all over the place, it is not an exageration...and I truly hope it doesn't migrate to your neck of the woods, Ross, as it sounds there like Wichita was here when I was a kid.

[goon of doom]

Wow, the mean streets of Wichita KS. Who knew? Where is Kansas yo by mi barrio Wisconsin?
GoD

[tim]

For some people no amount of threatened nor actual punishment will change how they behave. For many people the experience of prison will make them determined not to go back; for some others a 'positive' prison experience (education, training, whatever) will turn them into 'decent people' - whatever that means. Some people are so damaged by prison that you might as well have given them a machine gun upon release. For other people simply having to appear in a magistrate's court is so terrifying that it is all the punishment they could ever need, whatever their crime.

The point of a justice system is to apply justice; not to be merely a clerical system ticking boxes and adding up a score. Sometimes that means giving a different sentence than the common person might think is needed; sometimes much longer in jail, sometimes less, sometimes something different. Occasionally it might even benefit the culprit and the victim to meet and try to reconcile. Judges and their assorted colleagues have a hard job, assuming they take it more seriously than "hang'em all!" - and that's where we hit trouble. Just like any other job there are plenty of people in law enforcement/execution/review that don't or won't do their job properly. Prejudice, laziness, incompetence, all come into play to ensure that there will always be improper convictions as well as culprits getting away with it. One person's failure can ruin the honest work of hundreds.

Capital punishment is the arena where all that adds up to make for truly tragic errors. Recently the advent of DNA tests has made it quite obvious that a large number of people have been wrongly executed over the years. That makes everyone in the polity using capital punishment - everyone with a political voice - guilty of murder by reckless legal driving. How about we make it so that in cases of wrongful execution all the people that got it wrong (police, lawyers, media, jurors, judges, prison guards, executioner, politicians that voted for the death penalty etc) face the same penalty? Maybe that would concentrate theirs minds on something more than an easy arrest, a headline, a vote, whatever?

[basic.woodworks]

Profilers, analysts, psychologist, therapists and judges. We have the ability and training available as well as a little common sense can provide a judge with the information require as to whether a man should pay pennants with his life. I for one am okay with that.

Mike RL